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General discussion (archive)More RPS non-sense(277 posts)(277 posts)
(277 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted February 03, 2014
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awalterj: I'm a bit disappointed to see such a discussion on GOG. In places where 14-year old torrenters run around, I'd expect this to happen... but here with so many experienced and matured people, why?
I've actually seen a good number of artists speak up against copyright, so the issue is quite clearly not as straight-forward as you make it seem - take a look at the first post in the discussion under the article linked in OP, actually - eh, for your convenience, here's a link.

Now, let me ask you a question: How much profit does your work which is over 20 years old bring you?
Posted February 03, 2014
So what I'm getting at is some people at Rock-Paper-Shotgun seem to believe that GOG.com doesn't have any costs to cover when making old games work with modern operating systems. That or some people at RPS are just looking for publicity to increase visitors for their crappy website.

I view the price I pay for the games on GOG as the cost of convenience. I don't have to deal with crap like DOSbox meaning the games work upon installation. That to me is worth paying $10 or $15 for a game.
Posted February 03, 2014
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infinite9: So what I'm getting at is some people at Rock-Paper-Shotgun seem to believe that GOG.com doesn't have any costs to cover when making old games work with modern operating systems. That or some people at RPS are just looking for publicity to increase visitors for their crappy website.

I view the price I pay for the games on GOG as the cost of convenience. I don't have to deal with crap like DOSbox meaning the games work upon installation. That to me is worth paying $10 or $15 for a game.
"To those who interpreted my previous article as claim that GOG shouldn’t be able to charge for much older games, that’s entirely not the case. I’d just like GOG to be able to charge for their own work, and not to have to then include costs for the license they’re paying to whichever corporation owns the copyright on the game for which they had nothing to do with the creation." - from the article
Posted February 03, 2014
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awalterj: I'm a bit disappointed to see such a discussion on GOG. In places where 14-year old torrenters run around, I'd expect this to happen... but here with so many experienced and matured people, why?
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Fenixp: I've actually seen a good number of artists speak up against copyright, so the issue is quite clearly not as straight-forward as you make it seem - take a look at the first post in the discussion under the article linked in OP, actually - eh, for your convenience, here's a link.

Now, let me ask you a question: How much profit does your work which is over 20 years old bring you?
Thanks for the link.

I've been doing business for less than 20 years but you gotta look down the road. It's not solely some '20 year rule' that worries me, it's the cry for creative property rights erosion in general.
Btw I'm not trying to defend just my own property, I've got friends and acquaintances who've been working for several decades and are still depending on royalties from older works.
Posted February 03, 2014
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awalterj: I'm a bit disappointed to see such a discussion on GOG. In places where 14-year old torrenters run around, I'd expect this to happen... but here with so many experienced and matured people, why?
Because as experienced and mature people, we see the problem with the overvaluation of the work done by musicians, game developers, software developers and filmmakers.

You see yourself as being entitled to continued remuneration from past work, but does a nurse or a doctor keep getting paid for each life they save? Does a builder keep getting paid for a house he helps build? Does an architect get paid every time someone new moves into a house he designed? Developers and musicians often don't realise how much of a legal advantage they have.

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awalterj: As someone who has no other income than what I can make from creative work, I see things quite straightforward: You're talking about the very food on my table.
As I say, we all have to work, and we have to keep working to keep that food on the table. I'm in a creative profession, and it's no different with me. Why should developers be any different?

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awalterj: The first people to suffer from eroding creative property rights aren't big companies like EA, it's little small-timers like me (who, despite being unknown, has had work stolen and used for commercial purposes on several occasions). Sure, I'm not making the games you play so there's no need for you to care but I still gotta eat to survive.
Except nobody's really talking about eliminating copyright. Nobody really in their right mind considers eliminating copyright to expose developers to commercial abuse of their work. The problem here is the massive imbalance that exists in favour of copyright holders against the public interest to preserve and sustain access to creative works, and the lack of incentive to continue creating as a result of the laziness that the current system breeds.
Posted February 03, 2014
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awalterj: I've been doing business for less than 20 years but you gotta look down the road. It's not solely some '20 year rule' that worries me, it's the cry for creative property rights erosion in general.
What should worry you is how increasingly explotative is the use of copyright nowadays. It started off as a good idea, yes, but as it stands, it does no good for the industry. It needs to be rehauled, badly. I'm not even calling for a complete removal and as I said in this discussion already, 20 years is a number I have pulled out of my ass.

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awalterj: Btw I'm not trying to defend just my own property, I've got friends and acquaintances who've been working for several decades and are still depending on royalties from older works.
I have made over a half of web-application that will soon be deployed for a widespread use. I will not see a cent from it once I leave the company. Am I angry about it? No, I got paid for my work.
Posted February 03, 2014
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Fenixp: Well he's not wrong you know. I mean 20 years definitely sounds like a reasonable timeframe for just about anything to enter the public domain, preferrably with the source code. What the RPS person seems to be complaining about isn't GOG or any other similar initiative, it's the fact that videogaming history remains obscured in a labyrynth of copyright issues, and some might never actually resurface.
What happens to stuff that is still being developed? Warcraft turns 20 this November.
Posted February 03, 2014
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Elenarie: What happens to stuff that is still being developed? Warcraft turns 20 this November.
No idea. My personal prefference would be for videogames not maintained for 20 years to become public domain, but I'm not very good at law and can't really se reprecussions of such decision.

Of course, what could always happen is Blizzard retaining rights to the Warcraft universe, yet Warcraft I and II becoming partly public domain.
Post edited February 03, 2014 by Fenixp
Posted February 03, 2014
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Fenixp: I’d just like GOG to be able to charge for their own work, and not to have to then include costs for the license they’re paying to whichever corporation owns the copyright on the game for which they had nothing to do with the creation.
I'm wondering whether the guy is aware that in those cases where the rightsholders don't want any money for a game GOG doesn't charge anyone even for their own work.
Posted February 03, 2014
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Fenixp: I’d just like GOG to be able to charge for their own work, and not to have to then include costs for the license they’re paying to whichever corporation owns the copyright on the game for which they had nothing to do with the creation.
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F4LL0UT: I'm wondering whether the guy is aware that in those cases where the rightsholders don't want any money for a game GOG doesn't charge anyone even for their own work.
Though they would deserve to be paid for their work and wouldn't feel bad about doing it per-game.
Posted February 03, 2014
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jamyskis: You see yourself as being entitled to continued remuneration from past work, but does a nurse or a doctor keep getting paid for each life they save? Does a builder keep getting paid for a house he helps build? Does an architect get paid every time someone new moves into a house he designed? Developers and musicians often don't realise how much of a legal advantage they have.
Well, its not exactly the same, is it?

Builder / nurse / doctor / architect: they get paid for their service. Same as a waiter in a restaurant.

A musician / a writer / game developer get paid for what they've created.

[edit: Unless what they create is on the terms of a service eg. your situation with the translations]

You write a book, someone wants to read it: he pays you. That's how it should work.

There is also another fault here. The writer doesnt get paid whenever you read his book. You buy the book: you have it, you can read it as many times as you want. You only pay once for it.

So he doesnt get paid over and over for the exact same transaction, but for every separate transaction. Every time someone buys a book that he's written, he gets some money (not a lot tbh, same as with every industry, the creator has to share bulk of his profit with publishers and sale channels; same with the music industry).
Post edited February 03, 2014 by DrYaboll
Posted February 03, 2014
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F4LL0UT: I'm wondering whether the guy is aware that in those cases where the rightsholders don't want any money for a game GOG doesn't charge anyone even for their own work.
And you honesly believe that the free games offered on GOG exist so GOG staff could do something nice for humanity as opposed to ruling new customers? There are actually many old games which were released freeware or even open-sourced. Here, on GOG, there are like ... 8 of them?
Posted February 03, 2014
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Fenixp: And you honesly believe that the free games offered on GOG exist so GOG staff could do something nice for humanity as opposed to ruling new customers? There are actually many old games which were released freeware or even open-sourced. Here, on GOG, there are like ... 8 of them?
I didn't say that. But I do not believe that the guy is aware that GOG is actually willing to provide games for free at all. And frankly I'm certain that if more of GOG's partners decided to release certain *good* games for free GOG would add them as freebies without any hesitation.
Posted February 03, 2014
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jamyskis: You see yourself as being entitled to continued remuneration from past work, but does a nurse or a doctor keep getting paid for each life they save? Does a builder keep getting paid for a house he helps build? Does an architect get paid every time someone new moves into a house he designed? Developers and musicians often don't realise how much of a legal advantage they have.
Before I go into detail, the legal advantage you talk about only applies to big shots like Disney etc who can afford legal teams who do nothing all day but sue people who make Mickey Mouse gravestones.
Small individual freelancers like me who can't afford a lawyer haven't got many options beyond writing a polite cease & desist letter and humbly asking if I could please get a free copy of that role-playing book which has my stolen art in it? Sure you can join some unions and societies and make a little bit more of a racket but even so the results aren't proportionate to the lost time & effort.

As for visual art: If I sell someone a painting, I'm only getting a one time payment. The customer can resell the original work to anyone at whatever price they like (or tear it to pieces and feed it to the pigs for entertainment). Remuneration is only an issue if you want to print that painting on the menu of your restaurant or use it in any commercial way that doesn't just consist of selling the original piece. Many people don't understand that while they own a painting as a physical piece of work, the copyright is a completely separate thing that is sold separately. If you buy the full copyrights to a painting, you can then happily print and sell greeting cards and Christmas cards for as much money as you like. All depends on the type of contract you make.

Similar situation for architects by the way. You can resell the house you bought at any price but if you want to build an exact replica of said house using the same blueprints, that's a whole other story.

A nurses' work is harder than the stuff most artists do so why doesn't a nurse get remuneration every time you healthily get up in the morning, years after the nurse treated you? Or the construction worker, why does he or she not get paid a couple cents every time I use my house?
Not quite the same situation as when you're printing and selling role playing books with my art and making a direct profit from my work so I don't know how to answer this question.**
It's a good and perfectly valid question but that's a whole new topic you'd be opening there. It's a fact that payment across the professions is neither proportional nor fair in any way shape or form. And I have no answers for that, truly I don't but I'm not here to debate fairness of payment between the various professions.

***btw licensing images is not that expensive. And 99% of all artists don't sit at home lazily collecting royalties from previous work. It helps to add a bit of revenue and for starving artists any revenue is essential. Getting rich off royalties only applies to a select few artists.
Posted February 03, 2014
The article makes more than a few good points, I'd suggest reading it. Heavy-handed copyright policies are suppressing culture, and its ironic given that much of popular culture is so heavily influenced by every other bit of culture around us, the typical game is suffuse with movie, literary, popular culture references as well as using popular music, voice actors etc.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)More RPS non-sense(277 posts)(277 posts)
(277 posts)