It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
avatar
Trilarion: To add even more: Everybody is free to give stuff away for free. It is well within the boundaries of the economy.
Not really.

For example, we had that case of a Polish baker who was giving away bread he didn't sell to poor for absolutely free.

Yeah, IRS got him.

In this crazy world we live in, you have to pay taxes for shit you give away for free. This is why in supermarkets they usually give you 0.01 dollar receit, because then they will have to pay VAT from 0.01, not some higher amount that is stated in tax laws.

This is exactly reason why you don't get free bread samples in bakery. Because stuff they give away, costs them more than simply producing it.

Giving away stuff for free that isn't free from the beginning costs you taxes.

I understand your points, but sadly, the state doesn't like when you give stuff for free :-(
Post edited September 10, 2012 by keeveek
avatar
hedwards: AFAIK, free rider doesn't really apply to non-rivalrous goods of this type. Mostly because in order for something to be pirated it's usually has to be fairly popular. Obscure stuff tends to be really hard to pirate as it's hard to find and not too many people bother providing it.
I don't think piracy has really anything to do whether a game is more (or less) popular, besides that "popular games are also more popular among pirates".

There is also the so-called casual piracy, e.g. someone buying a game and then handing it out for free to all his friends and elsewhere, even without torrents. Contrary to popular belief, this kind of piracy still exists, not everyone possibly wanting a free game even knows what "torrent" is. They see a nice game (or song, or movie) at their friend or relative, and instantly wonder if it is possible for that person to give them a copy too. It can be an obscure or popular game/song/movie, doesn't really matter.
avatar
Starmaker: The stuff that's been paid for by taxes, of course. It's called Socialism, and it's pretty awesome when not screwed up by a shitty irrational ideology.
I buy something, pay taxes, and then give it to someone else - sure, that boosts the economy. But if I share something like a piece of literature, movie or a video game "under the radar" and it does not happen to result in anybody doing a legitimate trade it will not generate any kind of economical boost. If I don't get any benefits from it myself it's not even actual black market activity. So what are the economic effects of that kind of action?
Post edited September 10, 2012 by F4LL0UT
avatar
Trilarion: To add even more: Everybody is free to give stuff away for free. It is well within the boundaries of the economy.
avatar
keeveek: Not really.

For example, we had that case of a Polish baker who was giving away bread he didn't sell to poor for absolutely free.

Yeah, IRS got him.

In this crazy world we live in, you have to pay taxes for shit you give away for free. This is why in supermarkets they usually give you 0.01 dollar receit, because then they will have to pay VAT from 0.01, not some higher amount that is stated in tax laws.

This is exactly reason why you don't get free bread samples in bakery. Because stuff they give away, costs them more than simply producing it.

Giving away stuff for free that isn't free from the beginning costs you taxes.
That's weird. In the US you can give away anything that you legally own. You may still be on the hook for damages if something happens, but you can still give things away for free.

Now accepting or receiving free gifts is another thing. Technically your supposed to pay taxes on all of that. In practice though unless it's a substantial amount the IRS doesn't bother with it.

Also, you have to pay VAT on food? That sucks. Back home that pretty much only applies to candy sometimes and to alcohol. Something like bread would never be taxed.
avatar
hedwards: I just wanted to say that this is an awesome saying. I'm going to have to start using it because this kind of thing seems to happen fairly often where people are arguing about separate things.
avatar
bazilisek: It actually also rhymes in the original. "Ty mluvíš o voze a já o koze." Lost in translation indeed.
Well, you could achieve something similar in English while maintaining the concept by changing "cart" to "boat".

As in "you are talking about a boat and I'm talking about a goat"
avatar
Starmaker: The stuff that's been paid for by taxes, of course. It's called Socialism, and it's pretty awesome when not screwed up by a shitty irrational ideology.
avatar
F4LL0UT: I buy something, pay taxes, and then give it to someone else - sure, that boosts the economy. But if I share something like a piece of literature, movie or a video game "under the radar" and it does not happen to result in anybody doing a legitimate trade it will not generate any kind of economical boost. If I don't get any benefits from it myself it's not even actual black market activity. So what are the economic effects of that kind of action?
Which is why this sort of thing is murky at best. It gets extremely complicated when you have to factor in experience. Reading a book can be relaxing or lead to increased productivity. Or it can be the opposite.
avatar
hedwards: I just wanted to say that this is an awesome saying. I'm going to have to start using it because this kind of thing seems to happen fairly often where people are arguing about separate things.
avatar
bazilisek: It actually also rhymes in the original. "Ty mluvíš o voze a já o koze." Lost in translation indeed.
I'll have to keep that in mind. I'm seriously considering moving to the Czech Republic next year for the school year. I haven't quite committed, I'm also interested in Brazil.
Post edited September 10, 2012 by hedwards
avatar
hedwards: snip
If you're a private person it's different thing.

If you're a business entity you can't just give away stuff for free, especially when it has a price tag first.

In every "buy 2 get 1 free" or "buy shaving gel get a razor free" cases, business entity is forced to pay taxes also for the free item. I'm not sure how they evaluate such taxes, but they override that with 0.01 price on receit. I believe it's either 8% or 23% of the regular price

Yes, there is a VAT on food. I believe it's like that in entire EU. Right now it's 5% for standard bakery products for example (in Poland). If you make cakes? 8%. If you bake stuff that is good to eat for more than 14 days? 23% ...

It's so stupid that if the baker I was talking about previously was selling that bread to the poor for 0.01 , he would have to pay 5% from 0.01, but he gave that stuff for free, so he should pay 5% from 2.50 or whatever, which he didn't, so IRS got him. His story might not be the best example though, because he also cheated on numbers of bread he was actually selling, but he was punished for the free bread too.

As a business entity, you have to pay for stuff you give for free, unless it's a sample, or a tiny gift, like a pencil or whatever.
Post edited September 10, 2012 by keeveek
avatar
staticblast: As in "you are talking about a boat and I'm talking about a goat"
Yeah, but I believe there is no such thing as a goat-pulled boat. So you don't get across the idea that those two things are essentially related, but not one and the same. Which I feel is more important than the rhyme here.

Ah, translation theory, how I love thee.

/derail
avatar
staticblast: As in "you are talking about a boat and I'm talking about a goat"
avatar
bazilisek: Yeah, but I believe there is no such thing as a goat-pulled boat. So you don't get across the idea that those two things are essentially related, but not one and the same. Which I feel is more important than the rhyme here.

Ah, translation theory, how I love thee.

/derail
I'll stop it here, but in some parts of the world it was common to pull boats along canals from on shore. Goats though would be tough as they're not really large enough to be worth using as pack animals.
avatar
hedwards: Which is why this sort of thing is murky at best. It gets extremely complicated when you have to factor in experience. Reading a book can be relaxing or lead to increased productivity. Or it can be the opposite.
Exactly, but I don't think that waving my hand in a friendly manner at random people in a public place will be regarded by anyone as an economic boost, even if it may make some people more productive to see me waving my hand like that. And it's that kind of effect reading a piece of literature or playing a game might achieve.
avatar
hedwards: I'll stop it here, but in some parts of the world it was common to pull boats along canals from on shore. Goats though would be tough as they're not really large enough to be worth using as pack animals.
I was actually wondering about that before posting. I know oxen were used for this, but I can't quite imagine a goat being much use here… Hm…

Anyone got a goat, a boat and a canal I could borrow for a day or two?
avatar
bazilisek: Anyone got a goat, a boat and a canal I could borrow for a day or two?
Sadly I don't have a mother-in-law yet, else I could have made a funny joke here...
avatar
anothername: ... Extending the word to something like copyright infringement is disgusting....
avatar
Trilarion: Come on. Disgusting might be a too strong word. My kids are playing pirates all the time. Do you think this is disgusting too? It's just a word. The real issue is what you think how bad copyright infringement is. I think it is bad and is a crime and it should be punished. But I really don't care how people exactly call it unless they are calling it rape which is really out of question.
Check the links I provided. I wasn't writing about pirates of the caribbean. If your kids play "somalian pirates with assault rifles" I do would think at least thats disturbing.

edit:
My though about copyright infringement and the laws that support it is that it has mutated into something destructive which supports only people which are neither involved with playing or creating a game and resulted in stuff that make ppl even more use torrents (ex. all these "Oh, I bought it but cannot play because of DRM, thats why I torrented it" people which because of that also goes on to this brainless "lost sales" list.
Post edited September 10, 2012 by anothername
avatar
hedwards: The argument ultimately isn't about whether or not it's wrong, the argument is that by using the term theft it's easier to convince people to oppose it.

It also has the effect of suggesting that the developer has been harmed in an easily understood way rather than the more complex lost opportunity to sell.

I don't like people using the theft description just because it's far more complicated. I myself used to buy far more CDs and such when I used to pirate. These days I'm back to pirating things, but purely because here in China it's basically impossible to buy things legitimately. I have a few discs of Chinese movies on my desk, and I doubt those are legitimate even though I bought them in retail containers.

My roommate had the Big Bang Theory that he'd bought and it looks legitimate, until you try and watch and see the TV network logo at the bottom of the screen.

But, all those copies get destroyed before I go home and the ones that are worth buying will be purchased when I go home. Even pay services like Netflix and Hulu aren't supposed to be used from China. Even if one pays for them.
I get all that. I understand it more since living in the Republic of Georgia too, as there is no legitimate way to buy anything here either and I have turned into quite the TV/movie pirate during my volunteer time.

I don't think piracy is unequivocally morally wrong. I do however think it is unequivocally morally wrong to like a game, have the ability to support said game, then not do so.

And I guess my main point is that no matter the morality or situation I can see someone referring colloquially to piracy as theft of due profit.
avatar
staticblast: As in "you are talking about a boat and I'm talking about a goat"
avatar
bazilisek: Yeah, but I believe there is no such thing as a goat-pulled boat. So you don't get across the idea that those two things are essentially related, but not one and the same. Which I feel is more important than the rhyme here.

Ah, translation theory, how I love thee.

/derail
Mm, I thought of that after making my post as well. Geh, trying to come up with something that fulfills all the criteria is hard. Gives a person way more respect for the people who translate manga, video games, etc.