Posted January 15, 2010
JadeUzuki
RPG Fangirl
JadeUzuki Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: May 2009
From United States
kianweic
Just browsing
kianweic Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Aug 2009
From Indonesia
Posted January 15, 2010
DarrkPhoenix: So does racial and ethnic discrimination still exist in America? Certainly, both in overt and subtle forms. However, the way it actually plays out is far more complex than the erroneous and horribly oversimplified "racism exists and favors white people" view that you've taken. And espousing this view (and the continued focus on race that it brings) only serves to help perpetuate racial prejudices and hinder people being able to move beyond thinking in racial terms and simply view people as people.
banjangkueh: Sure, you can point to individual communities and neighbourhoods that are undergoing significant cultural diversification. However, I tend to agree with jungletoad, as it seems obvious that at the US has still not come to grips with white privilege, at least not at the national level. I think these two pieces by Tim Wise, written in the buildup to the last US presidential election, make the point better than I ever could:
http://www.redroom.com/blog/tim-wise/this-your-nation-white-privilege-updated
http://www.redroom.com/blog/tim-wise/explaining-white-privilege-deniers-and-haters
excerpt:
"White privilege is not knowing what the Bush Doctrine is when asked by a reporter, and then people get angry at the reporter for asking you such a “trick question,” while being black and merely refusing to give one-word answers to the queries of Bill O’Reilly means you’re dodging the question, or trying to seem overly intellectual and nuanced.
White privilege is being able to go to a prestigious prep school, then to Yale and Harvard Business School (George W. Bush), and still be seen as an "average guy," while being black, going to a prestigious prep school, then Occidental College, then Columbia, and then Harvard Law, makes you "uppity" and a snob who probably looks down on regular folks."
kianweic: Malaysia is by far the most racist "thing" compared to any country / company / organisation in the world.
McDonald should take lessons from Malaysia to be racist.
McDonald should take lessons from Malaysia to be racist.
Well, I'm assuming that by Malaysia you mean "UMNO," moreso than Malaysia(ns) in general =) Don't be hating on my family, yo!
Actually, I meant the ruling party altogether. UMNO, MCA and MIC and etc political party based on race. Therefore, everybody is equally racist.
Aliasalpha
Once Proud
Aliasalpha Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Dec 2008
From Australia
Posted January 15, 2010
Isn't there some major discrimination against chinese families in malaysia?
DarrkPhoenix
A1 Antagonist
DarrkPhoenix Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Nov 2008
From United States
Posted January 15, 2010
banjangkueh: Sure, you can point to individual communities and neighbourhoods that are undergoing significant cultural diversification. However, I tend to agree with jungletoad, as it seems obvious that at the US has still not come to grips with white privilege, at least not at the national level.
I think these two pieces by Tim Wise, written in the buildup to the last US presidential election, make the point better than I ever could:
http://www.redroom.com/blog/tim-wise/this-your-nation-white-privilege-updated
http://www.redroom.com/blog/tim-wise/explaining-white-privilege-deniers-and-haters
excerpt:
"White privilege is not knowing what the Bush Doctrine is when asked by a reporter, and then people get angry at the reporter for asking you such a “trick question,” while being black and merely refusing to give one-word answers to the queries of Bill O’Reilly means you’re dodging the question, or trying to seem overly intellectual and nuanced.
White privilege is being able to go to a prestigious prep school, then to Yale and Harvard Business School (George W. Bush), and still be seen as an "average guy," while being black, going to a prestigious prep school, then Occidental College, then Columbia, and then Harvard Law, makes you "uppity" and a snob who probably looks down on regular folks."
I think these two pieces by Tim Wise, written in the buildup to the last US presidential election, make the point better than I ever could:
http://www.redroom.com/blog/tim-wise/this-your-nation-white-privilege-updated
http://www.redroom.com/blog/tim-wise/explaining-white-privilege-deniers-and-haters
excerpt:
"White privilege is not knowing what the Bush Doctrine is when asked by a reporter, and then people get angry at the reporter for asking you such a “trick question,” while being black and merely refusing to give one-word answers to the queries of Bill O’Reilly means you’re dodging the question, or trying to seem overly intellectual and nuanced.
White privilege is being able to go to a prestigious prep school, then to Yale and Harvard Business School (George W. Bush), and still be seen as an "average guy," while being black, going to a prestigious prep school, then Occidental College, then Columbia, and then Harvard Law, makes you "uppity" and a snob who probably looks down on regular folks."
And I could just as easily set up strawmen and pick out choice quotes to pretend to show equality or racism in the opposite direction, but then we'd both just be relying on pointless appeals to emotion and this thing would just go around in circles. Instead, let me throw a little actual data in for your consideration. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Race_Income.png]Here[/url] is a bit of income data from the 2004 census. Note that while the income of blacks and Hispanics does trail that of whites, it's actually Asians who are firmly in the lead for median personal income, and even more so for median household income. If you're going to be blaming racism then clearly it's the Asians who are running the show and discriminating against everyone. Or if we instead wanted to consider what's going on a bit more sensibly then maybe we'd realize that there's much more to consider than just what race someone is. Something in just this little bit of data that should make this fact even more readily apparent is the differences in personal vs household income, likely explained by differences in household and family structure between various cultures that may exist within the racial groups. Break down the data further by things like location, income distribution, family size and composition, etc and you can start pulling out additional bits of interesting information, although I'll leave that as an exercise for you if you're so inclined.
Basically what it all comes down to is that, as I pretty much said earlier, the situation is far more complex and nuanced than the whole "white privilege" line, and trying to propagate such an erroneously simplistic view is not helping anyone. If you're actually concerned about racism then take the time to actually try to understand the nuanced forms in which it exists today and continues to persist; once you've gotten a better understanding you can then start to make the situation better, as opposed to simply contributing to the problem as your current perspective does.
Aliasalpha
Once Proud
Aliasalpha Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Dec 2008
From Australia
Posted January 15, 2010
Scientific study? Understanding nuances? Trying to fix the problems rather than perpetuate them?
You must be one of those bleeding heart liberals I've heard about on TV. I thought you guys were supposed to be evil...
You must be one of those bleeding heart liberals I've heard about on TV. I thought you guys were supposed to be evil...
kianweic
Just browsing
kianweic Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Aug 2009
From Indonesia
Posted January 15, 2010
There is always discrimination against people not classified as "natives of Malaysia" at all times. It's always argue that the constitution allows discrimination even though it is worded very vaguely.
Be it Chinese, Indians, Portuguese, Dutch and etc (better known as DLL)
In Malaysia, your race in on your identification card, driving license, passport, even your invoice if you eat in certain restaurants.
Now, that's what I called the ultimate racist system. 1 Malaysia my foot. Currently, they are wasting taxpayers money to create a F1 team for promote unity. That is discouraging me to pay any taxes to the government. Can't even get infrastructure right and still wanna piss all the taxpayer money off.
Aliasalpha
Once Proud
Aliasalpha Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Dec 2008
From Australia
Posted January 15, 2010
Well in all fairness it sounds like they DO want 1 Malaysia, but its just they only want certain people to live in it...
kianweic
Just browsing
kianweic Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Aug 2009
From Indonesia
Posted January 15, 2010
Oh wait, I forgot something too.
Your religion also form part of your identity.
So it's not just racism but religionism (if there's a word for it)
It is somewhat considered illegal for not having a religion.
Most of the time, I just put myself as a Buddhist although I rarely go to any temples or pray for anything for that matter.
Your religion also form part of your identity.
So it's not just racism but religionism (if there's a word for it)
It is somewhat considered illegal for not having a religion.
Most of the time, I just put myself as a Buddhist although I rarely go to any temples or pray for anything for that matter.
tb87670
The 'Fixer'
tb87670 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Nov 2009
From United States
kianweic
Just browsing
kianweic Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Aug 2009
From Indonesia
Posted January 15, 2010
kianweic: Oh wait, I forgot something too.
Your religion also form part of your identity.
So it's not just racism but religionism (if there's a word for it)
It is somewhat considered illegal for not having a religion.
Most of the time, I just put myself as a Buddhist although I rarely go to any temples or pray for anything for that matter.
tb87670: Ouch, I have no religion and only my family verbally attacked me for just a year. Being illegal, that's just messed up. If I was you I'd just list myself as Buddhist like you did and keep a statue of Buddha in my house as proof, only because the statues look cool and funny. Reminds me of my brother in looks. Your religion also form part of your identity.
So it's not just racism but religionism (if there's a word for it)
It is somewhat considered illegal for not having a religion.
Most of the time, I just put myself as a Buddhist although I rarely go to any temples or pray for anything for that matter.
Actually you can leave the religion portion blank, you'll just get bugged by the authorities when you make applications for stuff eg. Identification card, passport and so on. That's from memory. I don' t think they give a shit these days because it's just impossible to regulate and enforce this rule anyway.
jungletoad
In GOG we trust
jungletoad Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Sep 2009
From United States
Posted January 15, 2010
DarrkPhoenix: Basically what it all comes down to is that, as I pretty much said earlier, the situation is far more complex and nuanced than the whole "white privilege" line, and trying to propagate such an erroneously simplistic view is not helping anyone. If you're actually concerned about racism then take the time to actually try to understand the nuanced forms in which it exists today and continues to persist; once you've gotten a better understanding you can then start to make the situation better, as opposed to simply contributing to the problem as your current perspective does.
I guess I just don't see what you are advocating for. Admittedly, what I have said could be stated with more nuance, and it's not just a simple issue of white vs black even though some of the greatest racial problems in America are historically between white and black. So yeah, it's more complex, but that doesn't take away the fact that there are many advantages to being white that stem from systemic racism. I don't see why you think pointing that out is so harmful. I agree that we should treat people as people and evaluate each case ideographically, but the fact remains that we also are partly a product of our race and culture. It seems we need to acknowledge and be aware of what our specific advantages and disadvantages are in order to equalize the playing field. I think it's especially important to highlight the advantages (such as white privilege) because there is a general cognitive bias in most everyone to view our successes as the result of our own efforts and our failures as the result of external influences.
So, yeah, it's complex. But what is your take on this whole black365 as reverse racism idea? Obviously tb87670 is upset about it, but he's also upset that he can't use racial slurs. Personally, it doesn't bother me that there are special African American scholarship opportunities like this given the long standing racial divide between blacks and whites in this country. I think it's even a reasonably good idea. Scholarships for minorities and affirmative action may not be perfect solutions, but they provide a way to give people a little equal footing. I don't see that as white people thinking they are the only ones that can save the poor helpless black people as someone else characterized it. I see it as acknowledging our position as the majority and making allowances to promote equality and diversity. You're obviously intelligent and feel we are all missing something, so what is your position?
Post edited January 15, 2010 by jungletoad
tb87670
The 'Fixer'
tb87670 Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Nov 2009
From United States
Posted January 15, 2010
jungletoad: I guess I just don't see what you are advocating for. Admittedly, what I have said could be stated with more nuance, and it's not just a simple issue of white vs black even though some of the greatest racial problems in America are historically between white and black. So yeah, it's more complex, but that doesn't take away the fact that there are many advantages to being white that stem from systemic racism. I don't see why you think pointing that out is so harmful. I agree that we should treat people as people and evaluate each case ideographically, but the fact remains that we also are partly a product of our race and culture. It seems we need to acknowledge and be aware of what our specific advantages and disadvantages are in order to equalize the playing field. I think it's especially important to highlight the advantages (such as white privilege) because there is a general cognitive bias in most everyone to view our successes as the result of our own efforts and our failures as the result of external influences.
So, yeah, it's complex. But what is your take on this whole black365 as reverse racism idea? Obviously tb87670 is upset about it, but he's also upset that he can't use racial slurs. Personally, it doesn't bother me that there are special African American scholarship opportunities like this given the long standing racial divide between blacks and whites in this country. I think it's even a reasonably good idea. Scholarships for minorities and affirmative action may not be perfect solutions, but they provide a way to give people a little equal footing. I don't see that as white people thinking they are the only ones that can save the poor helpless black people as someone else characterized it. I see it as acknowledging our position as the majority and making allowances to promote equality and diversity. You're obviously intelligent and feel we are all missing something, so what is your position?
So, yeah, it's complex. But what is your take on this whole black365 as reverse racism idea? Obviously tb87670 is upset about it, but he's also upset that he can't use racial slurs. Personally, it doesn't bother me that there are special African American scholarship opportunities like this given the long standing racial divide between blacks and whites in this country. I think it's even a reasonably good idea. Scholarships for minorities and affirmative action may not be perfect solutions, but they provide a way to give people a little equal footing. I don't see that as white people thinking they are the only ones that can save the poor helpless black people as someone else characterized it. I see it as acknowledging our position as the majority and making allowances to promote equality and diversity. You're obviously intelligent and feel we are all missing something, so what is your position?
My being upset about slurs is really nothing but a minor annoyance but shows how our society is warped to allow certain races to get away with things like that. Personal experiences aside even a black guy my dad knows from Nigeria admits that the African Americans act like spoiled children and doesn't like them, but that's his preference. To me they are people like me when I try being nice they look at me funny. This is in Missouri, don't know if it's something about our state or local area but generally I get a vibe of them not liking me even if I don't say a thing. In my personal experience I also know I cannot get a scholarship due to being part of a middle class white family, my cousin had a baby and got a few hundred dollars worth of scholarship to a local school, then had a half-black baby and got all of her scholarship paid in full. Whether or not this is due to color of the baby or the fact she has 2 I don't know for sure but believe it to be a mix of both. To fight this I am studying to get a high score on my SAT's and I am allowed into the Mensa society but decided not to join because they seem a bit elitist. I might later though if I need a scholarship bad enough.
There is tons of evidence around to show that nowadays it is not the whites being racist, and I honestly didn't care too much until this website showed up honoring certain black employees every week. What about other employees? What about ones that might have worked harder? If they are not black they get no special recognition. That is indeed racial preference in it's simplest form. I don't partake in it and get discriminated against enough to notice in many ways, including certain businesses requiring a certain percentage of black people be hired compared to other races. This is a perversion of what they fought for in the 50's and 60's and the ones who act racist appear to outnumber the ones who don't. This is what bugs me.
DarrkPhoenix
A1 Antagonist
DarrkPhoenix Sorry, data for given user is currently unavailable. Please, try again later. View profile View wishlist Start conversation Invite to friends Invite to friends Accept invitation Accept invitation Pending invitation... Unblock chat Registered: Nov 2008
From United States
Posted January 15, 2010
jungletoad: I guess I just don't see what you are advocating for. Admittedly, what I have said could be stated with more nuance, and it's not just a simple issue of white vs black even though some of the greatest racial problems in America are historically between white and black. So yeah, it's more complex, but that doesn't take away the fact that there are many advantages to being white that stem from systemic racism. I don't see why you think pointing that out is so harmful.
There are advantages to being white, there are disadvantages to being white. There are advantages to being black, there are disadvantages to being black. There are advantages to being Hispanic, there are... and so on and so forth. What's harmful about treating the nuanced complexities of the situation in such an erroneously simplistic manner is that 1) it leads to the belief that some kind of general panacea can help the situation when it fact such a "solution" will just help perpetuate the problem and 2) it keeps the idea of race and differentiating people by race at the forefront of many people's thoughts, which is pretty much antithetical to the goal of removing the consideration of race from people's decision-making processes. As a personal illustration of this second point I live and work in the Bay Area with a pretty diverse group of people; pretty much the only times thoughts such as "Oh yeah, so-and-so is $RACE, isn't he?" is when I read through discussions or opinion pieces along the lines of this thread. Continued harping on "$RACE is advantaged while $RACE is disadvantaged" serves to put and keep the idea in people's minds that they should be cognizant of what race someone is and include that in their decision making process, which is exactly what we shouldn't be encouraging.
jungletoad: I agree that we should treat people as people and evaluate each case ideographically, but the fact remains that we also are partly a product of our race and culture.
WRONG. We are certainly products of our culture, but with respect to race (and throwing out simple race-linked genetic traits) we are rather a product of the perception of race. At the risk of delving into oversimplifications myself, the simplest solution to this is to remove any kind of focus from race, not zeroing in on it and regaling everyone with tales of how people are advantaged or disadvantaged because of their race. Culture, ethnicity, and race are all different things, of which race is the most superficial and meaningless when it comes to defining both our individual and group identities. What needs to be done is to start regarding race with the level of consideration that it actually deserves (which is to say, not much).
jungletoad: It seems we need to acknowledge and be aware of what our specific advantages and disadvantages are in order to equalize the playing field.
Take a moment and actually listen to yourself. You're trying to talk about advantages and disadvantages people have because of race, and saying that we should remain focused on race and the differences it bestows on people. Do you really think that this line of rhetoric will serve to end racism?!
To put it simply I think the whole black365 site is stupid. Beyond that I really don't think considerations about race and racism surrounding that site are worth any further intellectual investment. Beyond that I'm much more concerned with the subtle racism held by many people that leads equally to the subtle discrimination you want to oppose and the racist perceptions you are simultaneously espousing.
jungletoad: Scholarships for minorities and affirmative action may not be perfect solutions, but they provide a way to give people a little equal footing.
By constantly communicating to people that $RACE1 and $RACE2 need to be treated differently?! Affirmative action type programs may have initially been useful as a way to bootstrap certain racial and ethnic groups into a better position in the face of overt racism, but in the face of subtle and nuanced racism such a policy only serves to perpetuate a focus on race and reinforce the idea that people should be treated differently based on race. Race is ultimately an utterly superficial and meaningless way of grouping people, and without near constant reinforcement fades quickly in the face of much more useful methods of cognitively classifying people. Unfortunately much of the current "anti-racism" movement actually serves to provide that reinforcement rather than letting it fade and disappear as it should.