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General discussion (archive)Mature vs. Adult gaming(67 posts)(67 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted January 28, 2012
Once again, I think you've both completely missing the point. But then again, I might be misunderstanding what the OP is saying (since they haven't actually responded). So I'll just drop it for now.
Posted January 28, 2012
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MonstaMunch: I don't really see the issue. Yes, there are a lot of games with graphic sexual content and violence, but there are also a lot of games with neither of those things. There is a massive, massive amount of choice when it comes to gaming these days. Even if you only want to play games that include 0 sex and 0 violence, you still have more options than you could possibly need when it comes to choosing a game. Also, they are clearly rated and labeled, so the chances of you accidentally purchasing something you find offensive is minimal.
It not that there are not games that don't have sex, violence or profanity out there. It is that it is hard to find games with a meaningful, well thought out plot that is not full of clichés that does not contain some adult marital. Look at most of the big hit RPGs of the past 5 years. Most of them have what would be consider "adult" content. It is especially hard in that genre (also in the action genre) to find well thought out games that are appropriate for all audiences.
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jefequeso: The majority of game developers can't tell the difference between "adult" as violence, sex, and amorality, and "adult" as mature, thought provoking, and intelligent. But I think that it also has to do with the fact that the majority of gamers are, in fact, NOT adults. They want titillation on the most basic, animal level...and that's it. Tons of blood, and tons of boobs. The less mental effort they have to put in, the better. Just look at the portrayal of females in videogames. 99.9% of them look like they have flesh colored watermelons strapped to their chests (or, with the more recent advent of breast physics, giant flesh colored water balloons). Do you think the developers did that because it enhances the story or world or themes? No...they do it because 18-year-olds everywhere can't seem to deal with things that don't include gratuitous bouncing breasts. Not to say that "sexy videogames" are inherently bad (although I personally avoid them as much as possible), but it's a little hard to take a game seriously when its entire female cast look like they were ripped from the leather and corset edition of Maxim (does Maxim have a leather and corset edition? And also...why do people find leather sexy? I'd much rather look at a woman who looks soft and curvy...not like she's armored up for training attack dogs). And as far as violence goes...well, there are very few games that even try to give their killing and maiming any sort of gravity, and even fewer that succeed.

Yeah, I don't know if any of this makes sense... I'm kinda zonked out right now.
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GameRager: I know they do it to sell games, but c'mon........boobies. droooooll.....*smacks face*....um, where was I saying?

/silly mode off

But really, I don't see the problem with such games. Theres games for everyone out there, games that are mature and games that are adult, and also games that mix a bit of both or have none of either. Support the games you want more of with your voice and wallet, and have fun, is what I say.
Do you have any recommendations of a game (or games) that would appeal to a mature gamer that would be family approriate?

Thanks
Post edited January 28, 2012 by Zookie
Posted January 28, 2012
I think I understand what you mean. It's difficult to find games that embrace complex plots, difficult ideas, philosophical debates, and real character development without going "Damn, this is an adult's game now - can we get some sex in here? And decapitations too, please." For instance, BioShock - in my opinion, a brilliant philosophical debate in video game form (and yes, I KNOW THAT SYSTEM SHOCK ALREADY DID IT) - is quite violent and has some mature content that is inappropriate for a younger audience.

I'm not comfortable with profanity and sexual content, but one must accept some of that if one wishes to play mature games. I think that's the point that the OP was trying to make, and I sympathize and agree - I wish we could get more thinking without more nookie.
Posted January 28, 2012
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MonstaMunch: I don't really see the issue. Yes, there are a lot of games with graphic sexual content and violence, but there are also a lot of games with neither of those things. There is a massive, massive amount of choice when it comes to gaming these days. Even if you only want to play games that include 0 sex and 0 violence, you still have more options than you could possibly need when it comes to choosing a game. Also, they are clearly rated and labeled, so the chances of you accidentally purchasing something you find offensive is minimal.
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jefequeso: The OP isn't complaining that there aren't any games without sex or violence. He (or she????) is pointing out that the majority of "adult" games come by their label by featuring explicit or offensive content (Dante's Inferno is a perfect example), not by actually presenting mature or intelligent themes/ideas.
Bingo! You said it just right, and a lot more succinctly then me :)
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jefequeso: The OP isn't complaining that there aren't any games without sex or violence. He (or she????) is pointing out that the majority of "adult" games come by their label by featuring explicit or offensive content (Dante's Inferno is a perfect example), not by actually presenting mature or intelligent themes/ideas.
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MonstaMunch: Again, i disagree. I think the OP is making the unfair assumption that just because a game has explicit or offensive content, that it's not actually presenting mature themes and ideas at the same time, as if the two were mutually exclusive. I don't think that's the case.
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No that is not at all what I was trying to say. What I meant was the opposite, that it is hard to find games with mature ideas that do not have adult content.
Post edited January 28, 2012 by Zookie
Posted January 28, 2012
Well, I'm not a big fan of Adult themed games myself, but unfornately in society, Sex sells....bigtime. as long as people continue to buy sexual themed games, movies, etc, that's what the producers and developers are going to continue to make. Gamers may be growing up (Monsta is right, Average Gamer is well into his 30's) but desire for more sex and adult theme enterainment is growing by the year. More companies push that envolope more and more until we get de-sensitized to the fact. Now one of my favorite mature games does have a ittle nudity in it BUT it's there for a definate reason and it does it tastefully...LA Noire.

Edit: Zookie, i'm sorry i couldn't help you much...just realized my ramblings had nothing to do what you asked
Post edited January 28, 2012 by Hovis1974
Posted January 28, 2012
See, for me, sex doesn't sell. I didn't buy Heavy Rain for the 'graphic nudity' that was in it or play Fallout: New Vegas to see the hookers dance in tight black leather outfits. I buy the games because I want a mature, well developed gaming experience. Sure, I love the senseless shooter now and then, but to me, if games were more 'adult' it would help to break this illusion that all video games are about violence and nudity. Take Indigo Prophecy for example. The game I played had the sex scene stripped out. Did that take away from the experience? Yes, and no. Yes because it cut out content of the game that could help to develop interest in the characters or plot, and no because it wasn't necessarily a big part of the game. Do games like God of War that use nudity in monster designs and the recurring threesome interactive game piss me off? Yes.

My point is, games should be able to use whatever they want to convey a message. If a game has to have nudity in it, then so be it.
Posted January 29, 2012
I think the problem is that mature games dealing with mature themes will tend to present in an adult way as often that's the best/easiest way to get at the theme. I would agree there is also a lot of adult content without the maturity both in video games and frankly in the culture at large - and I include violence as well as sex & profanity in that as violence (in America, not everywhere) often gets more of a pass than sex. So you are asking for a pretty small demographic - mature games dealing with complex, mature themes, which are rare already, but don't deal with sex and/or violence in an adult content way thus allowing them to be presented to kids who are now old enough to grasp the mature themes, but too young for the adult content.

Essentially I think those would classify to me as "kids' games" in the same way that Pixar movies are "kids' movies". In a Pixar movie, there are actually mature themes presented maturely, but without the adult content. Thus adults can actually enjoy those movies (and games) as much, if not more, than the kids. However I think those games and movies have always been rare as it requires a certain quality in the making of them. :) But that's not to say they are non-existant now or in the past. Immoli put up a decent list of games.
Post edited January 29, 2012 by crazy_dave
Posted January 29, 2012
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HGiles: I completely agree. People who *don't* like graphic content play games too!

Even just adding options in to turn things on/off would be great. I'm really interested in The Witcher series, but I'm not comfortable with the graphic-ness of its content. Options to turn the blood spatter & sexual content off would be great. The TES games let mods do this (a no-blood-spatter mod was one of the first for Skyrim, hurray!), which is a large part of the reason I buy TES games but not the Witcher.

I'm also interested in the Gothic series. I tried to ask about graphic content and ways to turn if off in the Gothic forum, but no one has answered yet. :(
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GameRager: Turning off blood could be easily done, but an option to remove all the sex/swearing/etc would probably be harder to implement.

Also imho turning off sex would be just as senseless as turning off killing in TW 1/2....it's integral to the plot/story to depict all the gritty details(racism/sexism/etc) in those worlds.
Not really - there are many, *many* ways to imply without shoving things in the player's face. IRL, people don't need to be naked in the streets, or giving graphic details in conversation, for you to know that people have sex. People don't need fist-fights to be stunningly racist/bigoted. The argument that the only way to convey that kind of information is through graphic detail is completely off-base. There are so many ways that people share information in real life that are completely ignored in video games, even in video games that actually have a shot of conveying that information through tone, body language, etc, like the Witcher.

Also, you totally missed my point and the OP's point with the remark about kids. *I*, an adult player, want a game that has an adult mindset - which for me includes intriguing philosophy, deep storylines, intricate politics, etc, and an adult way of understanding and relating to the other characters present in the game. Having lots of graphic content is an *immature* way of blasting information into the player's face. It's unrealistic and off-putting for me.

There are a lot of games that don't feature graphic content. But there are very few games that feature mature (as in adult mindset) content without featuring graphic content.
Posted January 29, 2012
Think of, for example, Dostoyevsky's Crime and Punishment. It has violence, hookers, drunks and other "adult" content. Why ? Because it tries to portray a believable world. It's hard to create moving stories that do not involve anyone having sex or dying. The best you can do is, within a given medium, go for the "oh, it does happen but just take our word for it 'cause we don't want to show it" approach... or ditch the narrative and only use symbols that the player can manipulate.

To somewhat dispell the "sex and violence are for losers" vibe that seems to inevitably creep into this thread, I'd like to personally state that both are awesome and I enjoy them. I can have all the "mature but not adult" content I want when I read philosophy books. When I want to be told a story (whether by a game, book or movie) - lust and rage are completely fine.

Keep in mind - "content" is merely a "filling" of sorts - it needs direction. I pity the fools who can't see the forest for the trees and either praise or decry titles based on "content" alone.

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crazy_dave: kids who are now old enough to grasp the mature themes, but too young for the adult content.
I find this idea perplexing - I'm fairly certain it's the other way around. It takes a lot more intellectual prowess to read Heidegger than it takes to watch porn ;P.
Post edited January 29, 2012 by Vestin
Posted January 29, 2012
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HGiles: Not really - there are many, *many* ways to imply without shoving things in the player's face. IRL, people don't need to be naked in the streets, or giving graphic details in conversation, for you to know that people have sex. People don't need fist-fights to be stunningly racist/bigoted. The argument that the only way to convey that kind of information is through graphic detail is completely off-base. There are so many ways that people share information in real life that are completely ignored in video games, even in video games that actually have a shot of conveying that information through tone, body language, etc, like the Witcher.

Also, you totally missed my point and the OP's point with the remark about kids. *I*, an adult player, want a game that has an adult mindset - which for me includes intriguing philosophy, deep storylines, intricate politics, etc, and an adult way of understanding and relating to the other characters present in the game. Having lots of graphic content is an *immature* way of blasting information into the player's face. It's unrealistic and off-putting for me.

There are a lot of games that don't feature graphic content. But there are very few games that feature mature (as in adult mindset) content without featuring graphic content.
While I understand your position, I think you should also avoid asking for specific games to be tailored to your tastes. In other words, the makers of mature games can put graphic/adult content in a game without the graphic/adult content being immature. It can be very important in fact to the story and characters that those situations get presented and get presented honestly. That is part of dealing with the mature content.

As I put in previous post, that is not to say that all mature and complex stories with mature and complex characters *need* adult or graphic content to be mature and further I agree often it is shoved in for titillation. So I'm fine with asking for certain types of games to be made or supporting those, but that's different from cutting material out of someone else's work. The creator of the work gets to make that decision as what contributes or detracts from their vision. If they feel it is not necessary to present graphic violence/sex/profane situations to tell the complex, interesting story they want to tell then they should be thought of as no less mature than those who do use them. But that works both ways. A mature work should be dealt with maturely.
Posted January 29, 2012
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Zookie: ....
I don't think you're looking very hard then, there's plenty out there, especially if you're willing to invest in a console as well (since we're at the tail end of this generation it's rather cheap right now).

SPAZ
Sequence
Torchlight
Path of Exile (grittier)
most fighting games (they have T and A, but not nudity, but they have had this since we were kids)
Firefall (team shooter, not out yet)
Monday Night Combat
Enslaved: Odyssey to the West
Catslevania: Lords of Shadow
the latest Blood Rayne title (forget the name)
Deathspank
Batman Arkham Asylum (as long as you don't mind the word "bitch", funny how people defended them for making the prisoners "realistic" by overusing bitch but you never heard "cunt", for those in the UK and elsewhere, somehow cunt is more offensive than fuck in the US now).
Is Skyrim too adult?
Kingdoms of Amalur had nothing in the demo that made me think "super adult"

I mean, I just let my kid be interested in whatever she wants to be, I can understand your way of doing it too, it just seems like you're not looking very hard. There's more games made now than 10 years ago, probably by an order of magnitude, I think there's probably plenty, and will always be plenty, kid friendly titles out there.
Posted January 29, 2012
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crazy_dave: kids who are now old enough to grasp the mature themes, but too young for the adult content.
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Vestin: I find this idea perplexing - I'm fairly certain it's the other way around. It takes a lot more intellectual prowess to read Heidegger than it takes to watch porn ;P.
true :) but kids can be surprisingly precocious in their understanding of thematic material - not necessarily on the same level as their adult counterparts, but the connections they can make are quite good. Further before a certain age I would think a kid might figure out what was happening in porn but I think why anyone would want to watch it would pass over their heads. :) After all the opposite sex has cooties didn't you know?

Regardless, the best kids and general-audience literature & arts does present complex mature themes without talking down to the kids, but doesn't use the adult content found in the best adult-only literature & arts.
Post edited January 29, 2012 by crazy_dave
Posted January 29, 2012
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HGiles: I completely agree. People who *don't* like graphic content play games too!
There are a *ton* of games without overt graphic content, you're naming games that are known to be on the graphic side. It's like someone wishing there was a version of Resevoir Dogs with no swearing, just play the games that suit your tastes, there's more games than a normal human can play released yearly now, it shouldn't be a problem really.
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jefequeso: The OP isn't complaining that there aren't any games without sex or violence. He (or she????) is pointing out that the majority of "adult" games come by their label by featuring explicit or offensive content (Dante's Inferno is a perfect example), not by actually presenting mature or intelligent themes/ideas.
Why does mature content have to be highbrow? There's cinema that's, frankly, absolute shit as far as good cinema goes but that is still fun to watch (most horror movies fall into this category, at least the few that are worth watching). I don't want, personally, to experience every immature type of adult content out there, Manhunt doesn't really interest me, but it's not like I really wish I could play it and can't.
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jefequeso: The point here isn't to decry games that feature "adult content," it's to point out that there are very few games that actually try to present mature ideas without resorting to that sort of material. It's the default.
Sequence, Enslaved: Odyssey to the West, and Majin and the Forsaken Kingdom, right off the top of my head, do this exactly. Not every movie is made to win and Oscar and not every game shoots for some deep, awesome storyline, the default is going to be popcorn, comic book, action movie style stuff because that's what gets people to open their wallets. Regardless deep stuff still gets made.
Post edited January 29, 2012 by orcishgamer
Posted January 29, 2012
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HGiles: Not really - there are many, *many* ways to imply without shoving things in the player's face. IRL, people don't need to be naked in the streets, or giving graphic details in conversation, for you to know that people have sex. People don't need fist-fights to be stunningly racist/bigoted. The argument that the only way to convey that kind of information is through graphic detail is completely off-base. There are so many ways that people share information in real life that are completely ignored in video games, even in video games that actually have a shot of conveying that information through tone, body language, etc, like the Witcher.
What you're looking for tends to get in the way of the actual game, because it has to be, y'know, interactive. The sooner you can get control back to the player, the better, and that means leaving it as unambiguous as possible - which is exactly what is solved by making it explicit.

Furthermore, wrapping stuff in subtext is tricky too; if you make it too subtle, it can easily fly over the heads of the players. I absolutely hate it when a story is trying to convey a message, but doesn't actually state it - I almost never pick up on such a message, and that leaves me feeling confused and generally unsatisfied.

That doesn't mean it's impossible to do these things well, but it is insanely hard, and few developers have the resources to allow themselves to take such a risk. The few games that do come with the deeper stories usually go towards something more like a visual novel, because it's easier to get away with in that case - but that is also rather risky, since the audience is more limited.

There are many more games out there if your goal is simply a *good* storyline. Off the top of my head, Another Code R, in particular, comes to mind as such a game, but also Zelda: Skyward Sword and The World Ends With You, all of which were released within the past 5 years.
Post edited January 29, 2012 by Pidgeot
Posted January 29, 2012
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Barnell: I think this issue is more then just video games. People are constantly pushing the lines of what acceptable. TV, moves and games it’s all the same. For me it’s not the content that is the problem it’s the accessibility of mature games. I don’t understand why we can have a universal rating system for all publication and entertainment. Nothing controlling what people can see just a way that any random person can look at a game or TV show and know if it is appropriate for there kids.

That being said, before you judge games now remember Mortal Combats fatalities and Duke visiting a strip club. Games have been pushing the issues for content a long time now.


oh yeah and don't forget the WII, most of those games are PG at best
Who cares if they do this? Devs also make plenty of family friendly media...it's not like there are no alternatives out there or this is all they make.

I say let them maker such games/media/etc......it's not our fault if parents let their kids buy such things. And that's what it is(at least in the states).....we have a law that people must be carded when buying M-rated games/etc or get parental permission but alot of parents just relent and buy the stuff anyways or don't even bother checking what they're buying. It's not devs fault but the parents who buy the stuff anyways for their kids.
Post edited January 29, 2012 by GameRager
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This is my favourite topic
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General discussion (archive)Mature vs. Adult gaming(67 posts)(67 posts)
(67 posts)