I disagree that Inquisitor tries too hard and you can't define its maturity based on the bugs really.

I also think you would need to define definition of mature, even if it's your definition, much more clearly than something as broad as "not suitable for children".

Or the Witcher games. The story is by a large part a political one.

it's tough finding 'mature' games - I know because I spend a lot of time looking for them (still not sure I've found any). I think the problem for me is that I confuse sophisticated and intelligent with mature (does that make sense?)

I'm essentially looking for perfect illusions, technical and narrative masterpieces. I'm not finding them, particularly as most games are designed to be escapist and fantastic, which are two illusions that fail to flatter me into belief. Where are the games dealing with brutal realities?

A game is often defined as role-playing that mimics a real (possibly dangerous) situation in a safe environment, which animals participate in to learn vital survival skills. I read books to better understand, adapt and cope with the human condition (a kind of game). We've got hundreds of years of books to choose from with many masterpieces to enjoy. The problem with games is that they're a new, rather crude art-form: I read a quote by a game designer once - I forget who - that compared the current state of the industry's output to the silent slapstick films of the 1900's. I think that's about right: we've outgrown pure scientific interest in the technology and it has been popularised through its use for entertain, but we're yet to develop it as a medium to express truths.

As it stands, I think there is too much gratification in video games for them to merit the use of 'game' in their name. All I learn is that if I'm threatened by an evil despot intent on destroying the world, I should do some magic hocus pocus to rescurrect an ancient god, before mowing through thousands of people using nothing but toe nail clippers

I could go on, but off-topic much?

I actually think Ultima was geared right at children. Well, maybe not children, but Teens. It is mature in a gory kind of way, and the story can be considered mature-ish, but in one of the games, I think it was 4, it actually shows that the character you play in the game is actually a typical 80s-90s teenager.

Not all games are like that, the majority perhaps but enough that try to push the boundaries. I agree that it's an early medium so it has its shortcomings but if I understood what you want you'll likely have to put a lot of time to seek the right game, seems like a chore considering how few must fit your bill.

Speaking of which, any games that you've found that you considered mature enough to be on your list of masterpieces? I'm genuinely curious.

What is this, people are actually giving err "polite suggestion". Guess i am the only one with dirty imagination and gaming history. Ill not recommend anything or ill just make myself look even worse. sniff.

(then again you could grab copy of Blood Bowl and join the 3rd season of forum league: http://www.gog.com/forum/general/blood_bowl_gog_weekly_season_3_sign_up_thread/post1)

You probably did understand me correctly and it is (or was) a chore. I tend to buy anything now and not expect much. I make games, so I'm not necessarily looking at the whole experience of each game (I don't even finish many), but for little bits of inspiration.

I think this is how I feel about games.

I don't really have a list - sorry. I wish I did.

If I had to choose some that fit the mature category, I suppose I'd be looking more at the narrative qualities of the game.

I felt the Witcher games were well written, but the fantasy setting (albeit low fantasy) isn't my cup of tea. Interestingly, Sapkowski said he wasn't that keen on the games and that stories can only exist in books.

The Last Express (you can get it on here) has a wonderful visual narrative that I'd never seen before and have never seen since (this is a 1996 game). It uses rotoscopy and animates at around a frame or two a second, with the game director having chosen key frames from the live film to tell the visual narrative. The result is the best visual representation of people I've seen in a game. The story is crap.

Overall, Grim Fandango was pretty high on the narrative front without throwing 'mature' themes in your face. I can't say much about it because it must be 15 years since I played it, so I've forgotten a lot. It looks a bit childish on the surface, but I thought it was a beautifully rendered story.

Mafia (the first one) was one of the best Mob Films I ever watched, except I got to play it.

If you want to go a bit left-field, Tale-Of-Tales' games have some interesting narrative experiments. The Path was their famous one: that was the one that everyone said was about rape, which was interesting as it didn't have a story, just narrative modules (kind of like ink blot test). Their games can be a bit hit or miss - I wouldn't advise playing any of them unless you really were being sincere ;)

I feel there is a real dearth of good narrative in games - many of the writers wouldn't even get a Hollywood b-movie role, the good ones haven't yet figured it out (in my opinion). Too often, the technology's role in the narrative is overlooked and what the writers write is completely disjointed from what is presented (visually and gameplay-wise).

Well, there's 40 minutes I won't get back. I really do hope you were sincere, and take that list with a pinch of salt.

Just chiming in for a bit: Have you ever visited the Bioware forums? There are tons of freaking adults bitching about their favourite Love Interest. And believe me, not all of them are teenagers. In fact, I think most of them are over 20 (and yeah, there are females as well, but you wouldn't call them immature for liking cheesy romance plots, now would you?)

Otherwise, I don't really have anything to add, since I haven't played that many games.

Well, I don't want to overdo this subject but that doesn't really sound like the things I'm looking for. I don't mind one bit sharing my favorite Romance with Liara and how I felt so utterly overjoyed rebuffing Ashley, but in all honesty during that moments I felt devilishly and liberatingly childish, free of my normal expected behaviour as an adult.

Anyway...

Well, maybe, mabye that's it. I'm looking for games where my "grown-up sense" are useful, needed maybe even challenged, where my duty ladden, conscious-driven adult mindset is not left at the door but actually fullfills an important role.
I don't mind leaving it at the door waiting in childish anticipation of the wonders to see, the moment I fire up a great game, but I have really trouble finding those kind of games I mentioned before. Call them mature or how ever you like it's not my fault maturity = boobs and violence according to the media.

Well actually I quite enjoyed your post, too. It's interesting that you focus on the narrative, which is probably a good point to start. Lastly the comparison between Hollywood writers and videogame writers brings up the question why succesful writers don't want to write the narrative for games.

I wonder and marvel at what would happen if the Wachowski Brothers would write the narrative for a dystopian SCI-FI RPG,
or David Franzoni, John Logan, William Nicholson (the writers from the Gladiator movie) would try their luck with a historical, narrative driven game about ancient Rome.

Violence and sex/nudity are the obvious ones that push the age rating, but I'm sure a creative mind could find something else.

Maybe a game with extreme psychological abuse or that otherwise heavily promotes completely obsene moral values could qualify, I'm not sure.

I guess anything that could be traumatic enough for a young mind would do. Heck, without depicting gore or sex, a game with especially distasteful esthetics might qualify.

Feeling happy about a fantasy is childish? You have expected behavior as an adult? Grown-up sense? Stop taking yourself so seriously man, your life will suddenly get a helluvalot simpler. Sorry about my previous post, I was a bit on an edge, but it really seems like you're looking for something that just isn't there - videogames are fantasies, all of them. If you feel a fantasy that you feel good about is childish for whatever reason, you either shouldn't look for it in a videogame, or you should seriously reconsider your definition of what's grown-up and adult and how it limits you.

At any rate, have you played LA Noire?

But I'm played Myst when I was a wee little kid. So it disqualify the game for you.....

Edit: I like Silent Hill better than RE when I got my PS1 when I was a teenager..... so it got disqualified too!

I try answering questions as best as I can and if I follow your definition, I am not sure I can't do that because I don't know many kids to be able to tell what they find uninteresting. I mean I was into stuff like Sophia's Choice when I was a teen, so it's kind of hard to tell...

EDIT: Personally, I miss these themes in games which I find mature - Stress caused by the inability to find a job and thus enough money for living, issues related to raising children and older offspring (some of them have been opened lately), caring and worrying for older parent, "slice of life" style, human behavior during or caused by war conflicts (I have heard that The Line getting there), being in relationship (not just beginning of relationship or fling). These are just examples.

Oh my, you have stuffed so many negations in there that I think you've went all the way back to a positive :-P