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ovoon: Go get Slackware :P

+1
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Breakfast: Silly thread.
For some, price trumps all other considerations. Others prefer to spend extra money for their own reasons--convenience, aesthetics, whatever. When I was in college, I ate a lot of ramen and lived with a bunch of guys. Now, not so much. Priorities change.
In 5-10 years some of you will be out of college and have decently paying jobs. When that time comes you may find that OS X meets more of your needs for a desktop than Windows or Linux. Macs are certainly sufficient for many of the experienced software engineers on my team (others use Ubuntu... one uses Windows). Shrug. Eclipse is multi-platform.

I think this is pretty dead on.
There was a time that I loved nothing more than upgrading my PC constantly and pushing FPS on the newest games. Now I do most of my gaming on a console and occasionally break out my PC for gaming. When I do it's usually stuff from a place like GoG so I can play the same stuff I love without even considering the hardware.
However, that doesn't mean that it's not a lot of fun to cause a little trouble once in a while.
I figure if we're going to have an argument that reminds me of the stuff I probably said when I was 16 years old--why not see what it's like on this side of the argument?
After all, anything, even an argument over an OS, is better than reading a Walker Percy novel.
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Red_Avatar: The difference is that Mac users pay more, have a platform that is more protected than Windows, it has less flexibility and depth and somehow they still believe it's better than both Windows and Linux. All because Apple made the clever move of associating their hardware with creative minds (remember the old ads with Einstein and suchlike?)

It's such a condescending notion to think that the only reason millions of people prefer Macs is because they've been duped. I could make a similar argument the other direction and it would be just as condescending and just as wrong.
Post edited February 10, 2010 by TheMadSpin
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mogamer: Of course I don't go to Mac forums. I don't have a Mac, so I don't even follow the community.

I didn't say you should, just that it doesn't seem to stop you to judge Mac users as they were all the same as not getting jokes. Your words man.
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mogamer: And you say many Windows users pre-judge Mac users, yet you're doing the same thing.

Not exactly, cause, first, I've not talked about all PC users, and secondly, that was sarcastic, just to bounce on your own comment.
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mogamer: And again I see another Mac user avoiding the issues I bring up with Apple's anti-consumer attitude.

Just because that was not the point here.
To be honest, I agree on that point, but, again, that was not the point.
Post edited February 10, 2010 by DarthKaal
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Barefoot_Monkey: If you see a guy using a mac, complement him on his "nice Apple PC" just to see how he reacts.

I'd probably say, "thanks, I love it, nice abs."
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DarthKaal: This post brings to light something I've noticed about many Windows users when they are talking about Mac users. They have never seen any Mac users thread (where you can read a lot of criticizes and jokes about OSX and Apple), yet they instantly judge Mac users as being some sort of over-confident rich boys all devoted to their iGuru.
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mogamer: Of course I don't go to Mac forums. I don't have a Mac, so I don't even follow the community. And you say many Windows users pre-judge Mac users, yet you're doing the same thing. I don't think that Mac users are "over-confident rich boys". And again I see another Mac user avoiding the issues I bring up with Apple's anti-consumer attitude.

Let me address your issue:
I own a Mac, you don't. I'm clearly happier than you. You're worked up about a demographic you aren't a part of that doesn't have the market power to do anything to you and that likely makes up a minority of the people that visit this forum.
However, both groups that visit hear clearly enjoy classic games--meaning that it's not very self serving for any of them to belittle or condescend to one another.
I wish I could be as angry that you don't like Macs as you are that I don't care for Windows PCs. I also wish that GoG made games for Mac so that I didn't ever have to use Windows at all. However, I gladly boot into Windows when I want to play old games because it's not that hard (compared to tilling a field or building log cabins after a long malaria filled trip across the dusty U.S. circa 1800).
I'm an adult with a job and most of a masters degree. I imagine that I could still be a complete idiot (as some suggest--via how easily I've been duped into thinking my Mac actually works the way I think it does). However, I'd prefer to think that some of my education stuck (especially since I now teach at the college level as well) and that I haven't been astronomically stupid in owning and enjoying my Mac.
I also like that my Mac will run anything that's thrown at it because there are only a few configurations to consider at a time (one of the reasons people think software works better on a Mac is that it works without having to go out and upgrade every 2 months). I know that closed system seems stifling if you enjoy the power you get from upgrading ram, motherboard, videocards etc every couple of months (I used to share that need), but I've got work to do, so I prefer to enjoy a level of consistency.
They cap things so that products depreciate in value slower (I just got 1,000 bucks for a 3 year old mac laptop via ebay--something I could never do with a PC Laptop). They're more likely to run software out of the box because of a closed platform (the same reason I game on consoles most of the time now by the way).
Yes, as I said, all of this could be an elaborate trick and I could be stupid. If so, save your money, avoid college (especially the one where I teach) and continue complaining about a very tiny counter culture.
Self deprecation aside: I'm a pretty smart guy, a pretty successful guy and I own both Windows and Mac computers. Even with both options I prefer my Mac. I get a lot done--and other than this long and ultimately useless post (which I typed on my Mac) I tend to be incredibly productive. Maybe I'm one of the lucky few Mac users who didn't buy one because he's stupid--and I've just lucked out that it does everything it promised it would do with no crashing, viruses or need for upgrades. Maybe if I just bought a 4,000 dollar Alienware computer I'd see what I'm missing.
But--maybe we could just both be happy for one another instead and you can stop making judgement statements about a group of people not catering to your claims or assertions. This isn't high school debate--you don't suddenly become right because someone didn't flow an argument during the second round. You just remain bitter that someone else has found joy and comfort doing something that you don't understand.
In ten years you'll be against gay marriage instead of Macs, but for now maybe you could enjoy a few years with a little less anger. At least about this. Love and kisses from my Mac to you.
Post edited February 10, 2010 by TheMadSpin
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TheMadSpin: It's such a condescending notion to think that the only reason millions of people prefer Macs is because they've been duped. I could make a similar argument the other direction and it would be just as condescending and just as wrong.

No, you don't get it. This is about them thinking their platform is better. I wrote the whole part about Linux to show I can understand it's a different platform but different does not equal better. It appeals to a different audience who all too often think it's better than Windows and Linux because they've been told it's for trendy and cool people and because they paid a premium. At work, there's several macphiles who don't seem to get this and who will talk shit about Windows simply because they aren't familiar with it.
I don't subscribe to the whole "X is better than Y" theory unless two things are direct competitors and in this case, Apple is a different market, really. I would never push Linux on others either, if I was a user, because I'm all too conscience of the fact it's a daunting OS and would not be for everyone. What bugs me is that the Apple community seems to feel the need to piss over PCs which is why you got this negative feedback towards the Apple community. The whole "reap what you sow" thing, you know. This anti-Mac atmosphere seems to be growing over the years exactly because of how Macphiles profile themselves. This is not helped by the kind of people that buy Macs for the first time: people who think it's trendy. They're the worse people to have as part of your community.
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Red_Avatar: No, you don't get it. This is about them thinking their platform is better. I wrote the whole part about Linux to show I can understand it's a different platform but different does not equal better. It appeals to a different audience who all too often think it's better than Windows and Linux because they've been told it's for trendy and cool people and because they paid a premium. At work, there's several macphiles who don't seem to get this and who will talk shit about Windows simply because they aren't familiar with it.
I don't subscribe to the whole "X is better than Y" theory unless two things are direct competitors and in this case, Apple is a different market, really. I would never push Linux on others either, if I was a user, because I'm all too conscience of the fact it's a daunting OS and would not be for everyone. What bugs me is that the Apple community seems to feel the need to piss over PCs which is why you got this negative feedback towards the Apple community. The whole "reap what you sow" thing, you know. This anti-Mac atmosphere seems to be growing over the years exactly because of how Macphiles profile themselves. This is not helped by the kind of people that buy Macs for the first time: people who think it's trendy. They're the worse people to have as part of your community.
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TheMadSpin: I can appreciate that stance on a really, really, realllly basic level--until you remember that there are non mac owners just like this and that given the incredibly skewed market share that means there are WAY more assholes sporting Windows computers and spouting the same nonsense.
If it was a one way street with only uppity Mac users then I'd be on your side--but this attitude has existed for as long as I can remember and Macs had an even smaller market share then.
It just sounds like a ready excuse to be a prick and feel ok about it. I don't mean you exactly--but just anyone who uses that logic without looking to the left and right of themselves on the battle lines and realizing that they're surrounded by the exact types of people they claim to be combatting.
For example, what if, for no reason at all, a PC user posted an unprovoked attack on macs and mac users in a gaming forum which then led to someone trying to convince mac users that they started it? Wouldn't that be incredibly stupid?
Oh, and to toss some, "No you don't get it," back your way--preferring something is to like something better than something else--by definition. Given that I've seen no actual science or nobel prize given to anyone who's proven that any PC is better than another--I have to assume that anyone who uses one computer over another does so because they think it's better. Once again a spurious argument that only serves as a talking point to be a jerk and justify it.
Now then, with that said, I'm going to apologize for spending as much time on this as I have and recuse myself from here on. I've made my point clear and I'm thrilled that Windows users exist--it means that one day I might still get a DRM free version of Planescape: Torment.
But, I do think that my Mac is better or I would use something else. Otherwise I'd be a complete idiot. I'm thrilled that you don't think so, because I'm glad to know that you're happy with your chosen system. I also hope that both of us can avoid the types of schisms that happen with these debates--and of course, as I said before, started because a Windows user decided to take a shot at Mac users. What else are mac users supposed to do after a sucker punch? You swing back. Fight or flight.
Now then, both sides have made points--I won't say both sides have made valid points--but points were made. Now, both sides bloodied and no further toward peace or victory than when the mighty power of the Windows PC was displayed in an amazing bout of photo shop and screen capturing.
I'd like to offer the flag of truce from my camp. Mostly because I have things to do and my pitiful mac can only run so many windows at once before it stops being trendy.
Post edited February 10, 2010 by TheMadSpin
I will never make such attacks - it's usually a response to an existing attack. I don't see the point, frankly. I did respond on the iPad because I thought it was a terrible idea and a cheap way to milk more money out of their fanbase.
I must admit I really dislike Apple as a company for many reasons I won't get into (they're worse than Microsoft in my eyes, basically) but I won't condemn the users for that. It's just that most Mac users I get into contact with, are pretty snobby concerning their choice of OS. Maybe it's because I'm in the graphic industry where there's longer-term users (whereas in schools and such, most are pretty new users) but the outdated stories and myths concerning Windows still pop up on a weekly basis where I work and besides them not (or no longer) being true, it's pretty grating to hear them recommending a €2000 iMac to someone who has no clue when a €600 would suit their needs. It's usually when I then intervene that the discussions really begin and where their ignorance comes to surface.
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michaelleung: I remember using Red Hat Linux 9 for about two months then the fact that Java never worked properly and there were NO GAMES got me back on the Windows train.
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ovoon: Red Hat 9? Thats for servers... and it costs money. Of course it does nothing. If you know what your doing, Linux does everything. Go get Slackware :P

Once upon a time it was free. And I used it before they came out with Fedora.
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ovoon: Red Hat 9? Thats for servers... and it costs money. Of course it does nothing. If you know what your doing, Linux does everything. Go get Slackware :P
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michaelleung: Once upon a time it was free. And I used it before they came out with Fedora.

Well, there's your problem, that might as well have been a completely different operating system back then. Linux in all its flavors is very different today.
However, I would not recommend Slackware to anyone just starting out with Linux. That is truly the Linux for people who like build completely from scratch and know, in great detail, exactly what they are doing. If anyone is going to try out Linux for the first time, they are much better off going with Ubuntu or one of its variants, they are completely built around an "ease of use" experience, unlike other Linux distros.
Just a new example:
The Macphiles at work discovered that our new work PC has Windows 7 and *gasp* you can see program windows by pressing ALT-TAB.
"They stole that from Mac OS X!" they say (they mean the shortcut which shows all open windows neatly on a single screen - ALT TAB just shows a miniature of all open windows).
"Really", I say. "And where do you think the ALT-TAB idea comes from originally? Mac OS? Whoops, no, Windows 3.1 had it 17 years ago and Apple then copied the idea."
It's a silly argument - both OS have been pinching ideas from each other and we should be glad they do. It means both OS will have similar great features. Having said that, I'm glad Windows doesn't have a dock system - it was fun when I first used it back in 2003 but it got old real fast and it didn't last long before I made it fixed. Windows 7 took the right idea (leaving icons on the taskbar) without the fiddly and fancy bits.
Post edited February 10, 2010 by Red_Avatar
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Red_Avatar: It's a silly argument - both OS have been pinching ideas from each other and we should be glad they do. It means both OS will have similar great features.

Without mentioning that both OS have "stole" many ideas from Linux.
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DarthKaal: Without mentioning that both OS have "stole" many ideas from Linux.

Who has stolen many ideas from Unix... let's not go down that rabbit hole, shall we?
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DarthKaal: Without mentioning that both OS have "stole" many ideas from Linux.
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AndrewC: Who has stolen many ideas from Unix... let's not go down that rabbit hole, shall we?

Not to mention stealing ideas from Windows and Mac too :p
Seriously, everyone steals from everyone else. But in the end, the users win. So everyone needs to stop whining about OSes "stealing" ideas :p
This pretty much sums up this ENTIRE thread.
Just my 2 cents...(I know no one cares, but hey, thought I'd throw it in there anyway :-)
I personally like Linux the best, for just about everything but gaming...would I recommend Linux to 90% of computer users out there? Nope! It's not built to meet the needs of the average computer user. That said I think that Windows, Mac, and Linux all have good things and bad things about them...and something I might think as good (such as "having" to tinker around in the Linux filesystem) someone else might think is the worst thing ever...so basically they all three are good in their own right, and the only way you can ever say one is better than the other, is when comparing running 1 particular program or operation...
Anyway there you have my opinion :-)