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General discussion (archive)Letter to GOG about bundle keys giveaways. (164 posts)(164 posts)
(164 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted July 18, 2013
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thebum06: Depends on how far you want to take it. If your analogy is taken one step further, it could easily say that companies who add DRM to their games do not have trust issues.
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Randalator: No, really not.

Trust: offering one copy and trusting your customer not to betray your trust by duplicating it for others.
Stupid trust: offering several individual copies and trusting your customer not to betray your trust by giving the unneeded ones to others.
No trust at all: offering a severely crippled product because customers are dirty rotten thieves and how dare they even purchase the game when all they'll probably do is pirate it to hell and back (Buy our airship DLC! Thieves!).
It's not really worth my time to discuss this further. I'll maintain that breaking a company's trust is breaking a company's trust, regardless of how you break it. And the end result is the same, you show companies that they're right when they say they can't trust their customers.
Posted July 18, 2013
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keeveek: I can see no reason whatsoever why GOG should enforce Humble Bundle's TOS. Not a single one.
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real.geizterfahr: Because they wouldn't be happy with tons of "Witcher 2 backup key giveaway" threads on Steam's forums?
And would they "force" steam to block this? Don't think so. Every business is minding their own business since the dawn of man.
Posted July 18, 2013
LOL
Posted July 18, 2013
Blah a blooh, how dare Amok ask that people who use a service to get cheap games don't blatantly abuse it and break their terms of service to get extra copies. So unreasonable.
Posted July 18, 2013
@Amok - Did you get a response from GOG yet?
Post edited July 18, 2013 by YellowAries
Posted July 18, 2013
low rated
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YellowAries: @Amok - Did you get a response from GOG yet?
Yes I did, they were quicker with it than what I expected. It is found here:
http://www.gog.com/forum/general/letter_to_gog_about_bundle_keys_giveaways/post38

and here:
http://www.gog.com/forum/general/to_giveaway_or_not_to_giveaway/post13
Post edited July 18, 2013 by amok
Posted July 18, 2013
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amok: Yes I did, they were quicker with it than what I expected. It is found here:
http://www.gog.com/forum/general/letter_to_gog_about_bundle_keys_giveaways/post38

and here:
http://www.gog.com/forum/general/to_giveaway_or_not_to_giveaway/post13
Interesting... I wonder why I have personally never seen a GOG "Blue" do anything about them though? I mean, I've never seen a "Blue" even post about this issue in a thread relevant to this topic before.... I don't understand...
Posted July 18, 2013
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keeveek: And would they "force" steam to block this?
If I were GOG/CDPR, I would ask Steam to do so. There's no difference between entering a "spare key" and downloading a game, and looking on piratebay and downloading it. In both cases you don't have a license to play the game. You're a pirate in both cases. A key won't change this.

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keeveek: Every business is minding their own business since the dawn of man.
Respecting a store with a similar business model (trusting your customers) and preventing people from giving away "spare keys" (a key IS NOT a license) of games on my own website, pretty much is "minding my own business". Espacially if I'm in a business relation (or want to have one in the future) with the owners of those illegitimately distributed games.

A funny idea. Just imagine the giveaways the other way around. Something like: "Hey guys, here you have the DRM-free installers of the last Humble Bundle. I took the Steam keys, so I don't need the installers." oO

It's just inconsistent... GOG can't ask us not to give away their installers AND allow those bundle key giveaways at the same time, because Humble Bundle asked their customers not to give away those keys. If GOG doesn't give a shit... You know? "Gnah... We know they don't want to see their keys given away, but we don't care. Just go on, as long as you don't give away our installers." That doesn't quite go together...
Posted July 18, 2013
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amok: ...
I know it's against the TOS, but I have no moral objection to people giving away the keys for games they already owned before buying the bundle. If it makes you feel any better, the key they're giving away can represent their earlier purchase and the copy of the game they bought long ago can be considered part of the bundle.

That is to say, the number of copies bought and the number of copies in people's possession are the same. It's equivalent to me having bought a gift copy of the game for someone earlier and then keeping the one in the bundle. It makes no difference.
Posted July 18, 2013
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tokisto: I´m with Amok.

As posted by Lifthrasil at this topic: http://www.gog.com/forum/general/to_giveaway_or_not_to_giveaway/page1
"The whole DRM-free policy ONLY works on a code-of-honour base."
If we can keep breaking this reliable relation, this one could not continue in DRM free. Maybe HB will take procedures to put some DRM. And here is where GOG enters. Again, is a reliable relation. If GOG feels that not worth anymore putting DRM free games on sale, they could change the whole thing. And personally, I suspect that HB is not pleased with what have been happening, because the Steam keys costs a significant amount to them.

EDIT: Ninja´ed by Lifthrasil!
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Randalator: There are many ways for HB to address the issue on their own.

– Don't give out individual keys
That's what they used to do and gave up. They knew very well why people wanted individual keys and yet they obliged. It's a bit two-faced to go "Yeah, we know that you want individual keys so that you can give unneeded ones to others. So here you go but please don't give them to others.". To be able to pass on individual keys is precisely the reason why people wanted them in the first place. If you don't want individual keys passed on, don't provide individual keys. It's that simple.

– Make customers choose between DRM free and a single bundle Steam key
Another big "problem" are customers who are content with the DRM free download and pass on their Steam keys. Again, very easy to solve on the side of HB: Don't give out two for the price of one. DRM free OR Steam bundle key, not both. There, problem solved. No more gifting unused Steam keys. And all without brow-beating or guilt-tripping third parties into enforcing your TOS that you seem unbothered to enforce yourself.

And that's not even touching the logistical nightmare that is checking every single Steam key offered on GOG for a potential HB origin.
Amok answered this very well, see his post above mine. And the use of metaphor was well done. Let´s share the GOG games DRM free with friends! If GOG would wish that not happens, it will put some DRM.

And about HB not giving options between "drm-free" and "steam keys" kind of purchase. As stated by them, the steam keys are for convenience. Example: I wasn´t redeemed the Hotline Miami before, but now with the Steam cards, which I´m enjoying, I did it and collected the cards. If you want you can ask them why they do this or suggest that to them.
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thebum06: Depends on how far you want to take it. If your analogy is taken one step further, it could easily say that companies who add DRM to their games do not have trust issues.
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Randalator: No, really not.

Trust: offering one copy and trusting your customer not to betray your trust by duplicating it for others.
Stupid trust: offering several individual copies and trusting your customer not to betray your trust by giving the unneeded ones to others.
No trust at all: offering a severely crippled product because customers are dirty rotten thieves and how dare they even purchase the game when all they'll probably do is pirate it to hell and back (Buy our airship DLC! Thieves!).
You accuse people of "trying to stand morals" here, and at the same time you´re trying to establish what trust should be and in what degree.
Post edited July 18, 2013 by tokisto
Posted July 18, 2013
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real.geizterfahr: If I were GOG/CDPR, I would ask Steam to do so. There's no difference between entering a "spare key" and downloading a game, and looking on piratebay and downloading it. In both cases you don't have a license to play the game. You're a pirate in both cases. A key won't change this.
A pirate bay copy of a game and a steam key are not the same thing. If someone downloads a game from torrents/usenet/file sharing/whatever then they have a copy they are free to do whatever with. They can go offline, install it, and never look back at the place they got it from. With a steam key they have a game that is locked into valve's platform. They have to use steam to install it, they most likely have to use steam to play it, and they have to re authenticate with steam to keep that copy working. With people further locked into steam, valve has more opportunities to profit off them from things like selling them games or getting a cut from hat trading.

If the giving away of keys for free to developers was hurting valve they wouldn't do so. They are used as a loss leader, like dota 2 being free to play, to get people further into the steam ecosystem. That is why I just roll my eyes when someone says "You are costing poor Valve money for bandwidth by giving away that key!"
Posted July 18, 2013
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amok: ...
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SirPrimalform: I know it's against the TOS, but I have no moral objection to people giving away the keys for games they already owned before buying the bundle. If it makes you feel any better, the key they're giving away can represent their earlier purchase and the copy of the game they bought long ago can be considered part of the bundle.

That is to say, the number of copies bought and the number of copies in people's possession are the same. It's equivalent to me having bought a gift copy of the game for someone earlier and then keeping the one in the bundle. It makes no difference.
The problem is that is not a copy, it´s a license. The passage from physical copies to digital ones has been kinda painful. Most of us didn´t get the new concept yet.
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real.geizterfahr: If I were GOG/CDPR, I would ask Steam to do so. There's no difference between entering a "spare key" and downloading a game, and looking on piratebay and downloading it. In both cases you don't have a license to play the game. You're a pirate in both cases. A key won't change this.
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Fictionvision: A pirate bay copy of a game and a steam key are not the same thing. If someone downloads a game from torrents/usenet/file sharing/whatever then they have a copy they are free to do whatever with. They can go offline, install it, and never look back at the place they got it from. With a steam key they have a game that is locked into valve's platform. They have to use steam to install it, they most likely have to use steam to play it, and they have to re authenticate with steam to keep that copy working. With people further locked into steam, valve has more opportunities to profit off them from things like selling them games or getting a cut from hat trading.

If the giving away of keys for free to developers was hurting valve they wouldn't do so. They are used as a loss leader, like dota 2 being free to play, to get people further into the steam ecosystem. That is why I just roll my eyes when someone says "You are costing poor Valve money for bandwidth by giving away that key!"
It´s not costing Valve, it is costing HB.
Post edited July 18, 2013 by tokisto
Posted July 18, 2013
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tokisto: It´s not costing Valve, it is costing HB.
If someone says sharing keys would cost Humble a sale I could see their point and won't call that wrong. I was referring to people specifically saying giving the keys away hurts valve, which I've seen mentioned on here before.
Posted July 18, 2013
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tokisto: The problem is that is not a copy, it´s a license. The passage from physical copies to digital ones has been kinda painful. Most of us didn´t get the new concept yet.
Yes, and there are two licences. I was using the wrong terminology, but I don't see how that affects my argument.

There you go, I fixed it:

"I know it's against the TOS, but I have no moral objection to people giving away the keys for games they already owned before buying the bundle. If it makes you feel any better, the key they're giving away can represent their earlier purchase and the licence of the game they bought long ago can be considered part of the bundle.

That is to say, the number of copies bought and the number of copies in people's possession are the same. It's equivalent to me having bought a gift licence of the game for someone earlier and then keeping the one in the bundle. It makes no difference. "

I'm not sure how saying licence changes it though or were you just being pedantic?
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tokisto: It´s not costing Valve, it is costing HB.
It is costing Valve, but it's a negligible cost to them which is why they give developers (and HB) keys for free.
Post edited July 18, 2013 by SirPrimalform
Posted July 18, 2013
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tokisto: It´s not costing Valve, it is costing HB.
Doubt it's costing them much if at all, I know that when, I and most of those I know, buy from HB or any of these bundle site, we slide everything over to the "Give all to Charity" so technically the Dev and HB doesn't get a cent, in theory. Some of these devs doesn't even mnd you giving away their key to someone else, as they feel that it's exposure, thus if you like the games they make, you might end up buying their next game, or if it has DLC that you'll get the key free but in the end they still make money off you from the DLC you gonna buy IE Magica.

And if it was a "great" problem as it's being made out to be, then HB and others could have switched over/back to giving one key for everything, but they don't.
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This is my favourite topic
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General discussion (archive)Letter to GOG about bundle keys giveaways. (164 posts)(164 posts)
(164 posts)