It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
Hey Goggers;

As many of you know, we announced on last Friday that we are going to introduce regional pricing for 3 new games coming up on GOG.com soon. Looking at the amount of reactions (over 3,500 comments at this very moment), it is obvious that this change is making many of you guys worried. We must have failed to clearly explain why our pricing policy for (some) newer games will change and what this means as a matter of fact for our PC & MAC classic games, which account for over 80% of our catalogue.

To be honest, our announcement was a bit vague simply because our future pricing policy is not 100% set in stone yet and we were just worried to make any promises before it was. You know, GOG.com has been growing quickly (thanks to you!), and the more we grow, the more we are worried to make some of you guys disappointed. This is why we were so (over-)cautious with our announcement.

We should have just been upfront about why we've made these changes and what they mean for us in the future and what we're planning. So let's talk. To be clear: what I'm talking about below is our plan. It's a plan that we believe we can accomplish, but while it's what we want to do with GOG, it may change some before it actually sees the light of day. Please don’t blame me for talking open-heartedly today and telling you about the plans and pricing policy we want to fight for and eventually achieve. The below plans aren't sure. The only guarantee I can give you is that we’ll do our best to fight for gamers while still making sure GOG.com as a whole grows (because well, we still want to be around 50 years from now, you know!). So, enough for the introduction, let’s get things started.

Why does GOG.com need to offer newer games at all?

We've been in business for 5 years now, and we've signed a big percentage of all of the classic content that can be legally untangled. There are still some big companies left we're trying to bring into the GOG.com fold, like LucasArts, Microsoft, Take2 and Bethesda, but what classic titles will we sign in the future once we have those partners on-board? We need to sign newer games or else just fire everyone and keep selling the same limited catalog. Either we bring you “not so old” releases from 2010+ or brand-new AAA titles, because these will become classic games tomorrow. It’s as simple as that.

Also, well, we want to expand beyond just classic games, hence the fact we have been offering you brand-new indie releases for almost 2 years now. Why expanding? Well, obviously, because the more games we sell, the more legitimacy we have on the market and the more likely it is that we can achieve our mission: making all PC & MAC video games 100% DRM-free, whether classic or brand-new titles.

To be straightforward (excuse my French):DRM is shit-- we'll never have any of it. It treats legitimate customers like rubbish and pirates don't have to bother with it. It's bad for gamers, and it's also bad for business and our partners. We want to make it easy and convenient for users to buy and play games; rather than give piracy a try. Happy gamers equals a healthy gaming industry; and this is what we fight for. Anyway, I am sure you well know our opinions about DRM.

To make the world of gaming DRM-free, we need to convince top-tier publishers & developers to give us a try with new games, just like they did with classic games. We need to make more case studies for the gaming industry, just like we successfully did back in 2011 with The Witcher 2. It was our first ever 100% DRM-free AAA day-1 release. GOG.com was the 2nd best-selling digital distribution platform worldwide for this title thanks to you guys, despite having regional prices for it. We need more breakthroughs like this to be able to show all the devs and publishers in our industry that DRM-free digital distribution is actually good for their business and their fans. And when I say breakthroughs, I am talking about really kick-ass games, with a potential metacritic score of 85% or more, AA+ and AAA kind of titles.

And this is exactly why we signed those 3 games we told you about last Friday. We believe those 3 games can be massive hits for hardcore gamers, that they can help us spread the DRM-free model among the industry for newer games and we did our best to convince their rights holders to give GOG.com a try. One of those games, as you see already, is Age of Wonders 3. We're planning more titles even beyond these first 3 soon.

Alright, but why is regional pricing needed for those (only 3 so far!) newer games then?

First of all, you have to be aware of an important fact when it comes to newer games: GOG.com cannot really decide what the prices should be. Top-tier developers and publishers usually have contractual obligations with their retail partners that oblige them to offer the game at the same price digitally and in retail. When they don’t have such contractual obligations, they are still encouraged to do so, or else their games might not get any exposure on the shelves in your favorite shops. This will change over time (as digital sales should overtake retail sales in the near future), but as of today, this is still a problem our industry is facing because retail is a big chunk of revenue and there’s nothing GOG.com can do to change that. We need to charge the recommended retail price for the boxed copies of the games in order for developers (or publishers) to either not get sued or at least get their games visible on shelves. You may recall that our sister company CD Projekt RED got sued for that in the past and we don’t want our partners to suffer from that too.

On top of that, you have to know that there are still many top-tier devs and publishers that are scared about DRM-free gaming. They're half-convinced it will make piracy worse, and flat pricing means that we're also asking them to earn less, too. Earn less, you say? Why is that? Well, when we sell a game in the EU or UK, VAT gets deducted from the price before anyone receives any profit. That means we're asking our partners to try out DRM-free gaming and at the same time also earn 19% - 25% less from us. Other stores, such as Steam, price their games regionally and have pricing that's more equitable to developers and publishers. So flat pricing + DRM-Free is something many devs and publishers simply refuse. Can you blame them? The best argument we can make to convince a publisher or developer to try DRM-Free gaming is that it earns money. Telling them to sacrifice income while they try selling a game with no copy protection is not a way to make that argument.

Getting back to those 3 new upcoming games coming up. The first one is Age of Wonders 3, which you can pre-order right now on GOG.com. The next 2 ones will be Divine Divinity: Original Sin and The Witcher 3. We’re very excited to offer those games DRM-free worldwide and we hope you’ll love them.

Still, we know some countries are really being screwed with regional pricing (Western Europe, UK, Australia) and as mentioned above, we’ll do our very best, for every release of a new game, to convince our partners to offer something special for the gamers living there.

And don’t forget guys: if regional pricing for those few big (as in, “AA+”) new games is a problem for you, you can always wait. In a few months. The game will be discounted on sale, and at 60, 70, or 80% off, the price difference will be minimal indeed. In a few years it will become a classic in its own right, and then we have the possibility to to make it flat-priced anyway (read next!) The choice is always yours. All we are after is to present it to you 100% DRM-free. We are sure you will make the best choice for yourself, and let others enjoy their own freedom to make choices as well.

So, what is going to happen with classic games then?

Classic content accounts for about 80% of our catalog, so yes, this is a super important topic. We've mentioned here above that we can’t control prices for new games, but we do have a lot of influence when it comes to classic games. GOG.com is the store that made this market visible and viable digitally, and we're the ones who established the prices we charge. We believe that we have a good record to argue for fair pricing with our partners.

So let's talk about the pricing for classics that we're shooting for. For $5.99 classics, we would like to make the games 3.49 GBP, 4.49 EUR, 199 RUB, and $6.49 AUD. For $9.99 classics, our targets are 5.99 GBP, 7.49 EUR, 349 RUB, and $10.99 AUD. This is what we’ve got in mind at the moment. We’ll do our best to make that happen, and we think it will. How? Well, we have made our partners quite happy with GOG.com's sales for years - thanks to you guys :). We have created a global, legal, successful digital distribution market of classics for them. This market didn't exist 5 years ago. By (re)making all those games compatible with modern operating systems for MAC and PC, we've made forgotten games profitable again. When it comes to classic games, we can tell them that we know more about this market than anyone. :) Being retrogaming freaks ourselves, we know that 5.99 EUR or GBP is crazy expensive for a classic game (compared to 5.99 USD). We have always argued that classic games only sell well if they have reasonable prices. Unfair regional pricing equals piracy and that’s the last thing anybody wants.

What’s next?

We will do our very best to make all of the above happen. This means three things:

First, we will work to make our industry go DRM-free in the future for both classic and new games (that’s our mission!).

Second, we will fight hard to have an attractive offer for those AA+ new games for our European, British and Australian users, despite regional pricing that we have to stick to.

Third, we will switch to fair local pricing for classic games, as I mentioned above.

TheEnigmaticT earlier mentioned that he would eat his hat if we ever brought DRM to GOG.com. I'm going to go one step further: by the end of this year, I'm making the promise that we will have converted our classic catalog over to fair regional pricing as outlined above. If not, we'll set up a record a video of some horrible public shaming for me, TheEnigmaticT, and w0rma. In fact, you know what? Feel free to make suggestions below for something appropriate (but also safe enough that we won't get the video banned on YouTube) so you feel that we're motivated to get this done quickly. I'll pick one that's scary enough from the comments below and we'll let you know which one we're sticking to.

I hope that this explanation has helped ease your worry a bit and help you keep your faith in GOG.com as a place that's different, awesome, and that always fights for what's best for gamers. If you have any questions, comments or ideas, feel free to address them to us below and TheEnigmaticT and I will answer them to the best of our abilities tomorrow. We hear you loud and clear, so please do continue sharing your feedback with us. At the end of the day GOG.com is your place; without you guys it would just be a website where a few crazy people from Europe talk about old games. :)

I end many of my emails with this, but there's rarely a time to use it more appropriately than here:

“Best DRM-free wishes,

Guillaume Rambourg,
(TheFrenchMonk)
Managing Director -- GOG.com”
avatar
FraggingBard: Regional pricing, regional availability, DRM. That's how it's worked on every other site, and every other store. What makes GOG different? If I'm paying more for being born in a certain place (new game costs 40USD, 100AUD, regardless of AUD to USD ratio), and I accept that, will I also need to accept regional availability in the future? Will you be adding DRM? Exclusives started here but now all the soundtracks are on Steam, will you keep getting something to go along with the higher prices and lack of content?

So is this site worth staying with as someone currently in Australia? And should I move, will the price go down or am I region locked for life like some other sites do?
You are not regionally locked. And you can use VPN to get better prices on GOG as some people have already proposed to others since gog does not care anymore.
Post edited March 01, 2014 by Matruchus
avatar
dhundahl: ...what on Earth would you have GOG do about that...
avatar
Trilarion: I would have proposed full compensation by store credit on GOG's costs for all prices higher than $40 for the pre-order AoW3 and a big apology for this unsatisfactory situation. I think the situation with digital being screwed by retail, some region screwed in comparison to others, requires bravery and boldness, not just giving in and doing nothing.

To summarize: Full compensation by store credit on GOG's costs for the most awkward out-of-line prices. That would have done the trick.
I think TET already said a few words on why full compensation through store credit isn't an option. And it's rather easy for you to talk about GOG being bold with their money and risking fairly unpleasant lawsuits hitting them, while you're sitting comfortably in your armchair.

If GOG had insisted on flat prices then they wouldn't be selling AOW3 DMR-free on release day. It is that simple. If they go too far in trying to compensate for the pricing then they'll either destroy their own profit margin, leading them to slowly bankrupt themselves (and who gains from that?) or they'll run into a lawsuit by the other distributors for not living up to their contractual agreements.
avatar
Matruchus: You are not regionally locked. And you can use VPN to get better prices on GOG as some people have already proposed to others since gog does not care anymore.
Not regionally locked yet.*

:P

Region locks are the fun thing that always hits places after pricing based on where you're born. VPN on Steam and you'll get kicked out of your account, I think I mentioned something like that in the end of my post though. If I move then does the region lock still apply to the account. Or would it get banned, I didn't mention VPN's 'cause they're a touchy subject and no company is going to tell their customers to bypass the contracts; that would get them in trouble. :P
avatar
FraggingBard: Regional pricing, regional availability, DRM. That's how it's worked on every other site, and every other store. What makes GOG different? If I'm paying more for being born in a certain place (new game costs 40USD, 100AUD, regardless of AUD to USD ratio), and I accept that, will I also need to accept regional availability in the future? Will you be adding DRM? Exclusives started here but now all the soundtracks are on Steam, will you keep getting something to go along with the higher prices and lack of content?

So is this site worth staying with as someone currently in Australia? And should I move, will the price go down or am I region locked for life like some other sites do?
avatar
Matruchus: You are not regionally locked. And you can use VPN to get better prices on GOG as some people have already proposed to others since gog does not care anymore.
Regarding VPN's here is TET's earlier response.
Post edited March 01, 2014 by JudasIscariot
avatar
dhundahl: The vastly overpriced sum of money that is a few eurocents? Yeah, I'm sure you typically refer to that as "highway robbery" in the US. Unless it's related to healthcare, in which case it's the most natural way of doing things and doing anything imaginable to reduce the overcharging is a violation of both the constitution and the human rights of big pharma corporations.

My apologies for the sarcasm, by the way, but until we know how much we're actually going to get overcharged on the classics, it seems very premature to talk about highway robberies.
avatar
hedwards: We already know that this is 1 dollar is 1 euro for the new games, the other games are somewhat less overpriced, but they're still overpriced and use a favorable exchange rate for GOG. Granted having constant prices is a necessity, but it's a few eurocents right now with no reason nor is there any guarantee that it will always be like that.
The exchange rate favors GOG with a few cents now, though this is compensated for by the lack of an exchange fee. You don't know that the exchange rate will continue to favor GOG and we don't have the definitive details as to how the rate will be updated just yet.

We have no guarantees that the regional pricing won't end up with greater disparity than what they've proposed now but we also don't know that it will, so why assume the worst out of hand?

avatar
hedwards: Anyways, don't you have better things to do than to troll the forum?
So you and a bunch of other users spamming the living hell out of this topic with comment after comment about how GOG are treacherous bastard dipshits who will force DRM onto everybody and cannot ever be trusted again is sensible, rational commenting, but me replying calmly to what I consider premature negativity is trolling? That sounds like a funny definition.
avatar
Matruchus: You are not regionally locked. And you can use VPN to get better prices on GOG as some people have already proposed to others since gog does not care anymore.
avatar
FraggingBard: Not regionally locked yet.*

:P

Region locks are the fun thing that always hits places after pricing based on where you're born. VPN on Steam and you'll get kicked out of your account, I think I mentioned something like that in the end of my post though. If I move then does the region lock still apply to the account. Or would it get banned, I didn't mention VPN's 'cause they're a touchy subject and no company is going to tell their customers to bypass the contracts; that would get them in trouble. :P
Region lock is not locked to your account same as with steam. You can move anywhere and take all the games bound on your account with you.
Post edited March 01, 2014 by Matruchus
avatar
hedwards: We already know that this is 1 dollar is 1 euro for the new games, the other games are somewhat less overpriced, but they're still overpriced and use a favorable exchange rate for GOG. Granted having constant prices is a necessity, but it's a few eurocents right now with no reason nor is there any guarantee that it will always be like that.
avatar
dhundahl: The exchange rate favors GOG with a few cents now, though this is compensated for by the lack of an exchange fee. You don't know that the exchange rate will continue to favor GOG and we don't have the definitive details as to how the rate will be updated just yet.

We have no guarantees that the regional pricing won't end up with greater disparity than what they've proposed now but we also don't know that it will, so why assume the worst out of hand?
Only if you live in one of the regions and use the same currency does that apply. And I've seen somebody here complain that they don't pay to convert their money into dollars, so they're paying the same fee for using the credit card online and being hit by this charge.

For individuals in many of the Eastern European states they still have to have their currency converted and they get he added benefit of higher prices.

avatar
hedwards: Anyways, don't you have better things to do than to troll the forum?
avatar
dhundahl: So you and a bunch of other users spamming the living hell out of this topic with comment after comment about how GOG are treacherous bastard dipshits who will force DRM onto everybody and cannot ever be trusted again is sensible, rational commenting, but me replying calmly to what I consider premature negativity is trolling? That sounds like a funny definition.
It's not spamming, what you're doing is spamming, do you even have a legitimate point to make here or are you just trolling? Misdirection and making shit up is not what I personally would consider being sensible or rational.
avatar
dhundahl: If we assume ten cents per sold game then ten thousand units add up to one thousand euros. Now keep in mind that we're talking about a business. What practical difference is a mere thousand euro going to do for their overall revenue? And now imagine that the euro weakens relative to the dollar. Suddenly Europeans will be paying half a percent less than what the equivalent dollar price was. How is that going to boost GOG's revenue?

And changing the goalposts by suddenly talking about the aggregate pricture won't change that the biggest difference for users expected so far is a few eurocents, as long as we're talking about the classics.
avatar
Matruchus: Sorry doesnt hold water.

This at the moment what would be reality:

Post from XzavierHyde: Actually, if the 1$ = 1€ rule gets applied to all games, current exchange rates would mean Europeans can look forward to paying $8.26 for a $5.99 game, and $13.78 for a $9.99 title. If they don't pass along the VAT to us, I would expect to pay the exact same amount in $ as a US customer.
Moving of the goalposts like that? I thought you were better than that, mate. There is no imaginable reason to start pretending that the dollar equals euro thing applies to anything beyond new big title releases. Trying to argue based on what it would mean if it was applied to all games is tremendously dishonest and I'm actually disappointed that you're stooping that low.

Yes, you may fear that they'll do something like that at some point in the distant future, but they have not done it yet, and we can't argue based on what could potentially one day happen. World war three could potentially happen. Nuclear holocaust could happen. That Yellowstone super volcano could happen. We don't know and we cannot argue in any remotely coherent and rational way based on what we don't know.
avatar
Matruchus: Sorry doesnt hold water.

This at the moment what would be reality:

Post from XzavierHyde: Actually, if the 1$ = 1€ rule gets applied to all games, current exchange rates would mean Europeans can look forward to paying $8.26 for a $5.99 game, and $13.78 for a $9.99 title. If they don't pass along the VAT to us, I would expect to pay the exact same amount in $ as a US customer.
avatar
dhundahl: Moving of the goalposts like that? I thought you were better than that, mate. There is no imaginable reason to start pretending that the dollar equals euro thing applies to anything beyond new big title releases. Trying to argue based on what it would mean if it was applied to all games is tremendously dishonest and I'm actually disappointed that you're stooping that low.

Yes, you may fear that they'll do something like that at some point in the distant future, but they have not done it yet, and we can't argue based on what could potentially one day happen. World war three could potentially happen. Nuclear holocaust could happen. That Yellowstone super volcano could happen. We don't know and we cannot argue in any remotely coherent and rational way based on what we don't know.
Look we all know its going to happen sooner or later. Its no use chasing tails and saying gog is good, gog is pure when we all know it is a business and mark my words this will happen since this is normal in every store that uses regional pricing.

I know that they are going for fixed exchange currency prices for now as we talked about it whole day long.
Post edited March 01, 2014 by Matruchus
avatar
TheEnigmaticT: That's...actually pretty awesome. I hope you won't mind if we reply in kind. ;)
Thats awesome guys, I like your attitude :) And the way you communicate with your audience.
avatar
dhundahl: The exchange rate favors GOG with a few cents now, though this is compensated for by the lack of an exchange fee. You don't know that the exchange rate will continue to favor GOG and we don't have the definitive details as to how the rate will be updated just yet.

We have no guarantees that the regional pricing won't end up with greater disparity than what they've proposed now but we also don't know that it will, so why assume the worst out of hand?
avatar
hedwards: Only if you live in one of the regions and use the same currency does that apply. And I've seen somebody here complain that they don't pay to convert their money into dollars, so they're paying the same fee for using the credit card online and being hit by this charge.

For individuals in many of the Eastern European states they still have to have their currency converted and they get he added benefit of higher prices.

avatar
dhundahl: So you and a bunch of other users spamming the living hell out of this topic with comment after comment about how GOG are treacherous bastard dipshits who will force DRM onto everybody and cannot ever be trusted again is sensible, rational commenting, but me replying calmly to what I consider premature negativity is trolling? That sounds like a funny definition.
avatar
hedwards: It's not spamming, what you're doing is spamming, do you even have a legitimate point to make here or are you just trolling? Misdirection and making shit up is not what I personally would consider being sensible or rational.
1) And how many don't live in a region where the displayed currency applies? That's quite the minority, isn't it? Most are conceivably getting a better deal than what they used to get. It's a shame for that minority, of which I'm in fact one, but in time that minority will become increasingly smaller. And TET has promises that the rest will have the currency displayed in whatever currency that fits in better with their country, which means that such places might end up getting the dollar prices after all.

2) How many angry comments have you made in this topic, hedwards? Wouldn't you say that your point of negativity has been made at this point? And yet you keep making post after post after post after post after post slamming GOG for not making exactly the choice you'd have made? As for me, I'm simply replying to some of the negative comments that I consider overly depressed or inaccurate. Yes, I have a legitimate point, or at least I think it is, and yes, I do believe that I have in fact made it repeatedly. I believe my point of "you're worrying prematurely" is no less valid than all the angry rage posts in here. And I don't believe I've lied at any point.

3) What you consider sensible or rational strikes me as fairly unimportant when apparently you do consider it sensible and rational to accuse other users of trolling just because they persistently disagree with you.
avatar
hedwards: Only if you live in one of the regions and use the same currency does that apply. And I've seen somebody here complain that they don't pay to convert their money into dollars, so they're paying the same fee for using the credit card online and being hit by this charge.

For individuals in many of the Eastern European states they still have to have their currency converted and they get he added benefit of higher prices.

It's not spamming, what you're doing is spamming, do you even have a legitimate point to make here or are you just trolling? Misdirection and making shit up is not what I personally would consider being sensible or rational.
avatar
dhundahl: 1) And how many don't live in a region where the displayed currency applies? That's quite the minority, isn't it? Most are conceivably getting a better deal than what they used to get. It's a shame for that minority, of which I'm in fact one, but in time that minority will become increasingly smaller. And TET has promises that the rest will have the currency displayed in whatever currency that fits in better with their country, which means that such places might end up getting the dollar prices after all.

2) How many angry comments have you made in this topic, hedwards? Wouldn't you say that your point of negativity has been made at this point? And yet you keep making post after post after post after post after post slamming GOG for not making exactly the choice you'd have made? As for me, I'm simply replying to some of the negative comments that I consider overly depressed or inaccurate. Yes, I have a legitimate point, or at least I think it is, and yes, I do believe that I have in fact made it repeatedly. I believe my point of "you're worrying prematurely" is no less valid than all the angry rage posts in here. And I don't believe I've lied at any point.

3) What you consider sensible or rational strikes me as fairly unimportant when apparently you do consider it sensible and rational to accuse other users of trolling just because they persistently disagree with you.
A minority - are you kidding me almoust 300 million potentional customers in Europe.

TeT also said in other post they wont display other currencies since that would mix up buyers. So much for transparency.
avatar
Davane: I think the impression here is that GOG will enforce Regional Pricing by using Region Locking, which is "a class of technologies[1] that are used by hardware manufacturers, publishers, copyright holders, and individuals with the intent to control the use of digital content and devices after sale."
avatar
TheEnigmaticT: I'm not sure if I answered this or not yet: if we were to add some kind of program that checked to see what region of the world you were in and either prevented installation or else prevented launching of the game based upon where in the world you are? Yeah, I'd agree that's completely impermissible behavior.

Restricting the *sale* of games in certain regions? I dunno. I wouldn't think that's DRM. If, once you have the game, you can do what you want to with it no matter where you are (i.e., after the sale), it would definitely fall more under regional pricing (as in: there is none) than regional locking to me. Would you agree with that or not?
I agree :)
avatar
TheEnigmaticT: I'm not sure if I answered this or not yet: if we were to add some kind of program that checked to see what region of the world you were in and either prevented installation or else prevented launching of the game based upon where in the world you are? Yeah, I'd agree that's completely impermissible behavior.

Restricting the *sale* of games in certain regions? I dunno. I wouldn't think that's DRM. If, once you have the game, you can do what you want to with it no matter where you are (i.e., after the sale), it would definitely fall more under regional pricing (as in: there is none) than regional locking to me. Would you agree with that or not?
avatar
N3xtGeN: I agree :)
Yes that is drm since that is a restrictive license and that falls under drm in the wikipedia drm description - look it up.
avatar
dhundahl: Moving of the goalposts like that? I thought you were better than that, mate. There is no imaginable reason to start pretending that the dollar equals euro thing applies to anything beyond new big title releases. Trying to argue based on what it would mean if it was applied to all games is tremendously dishonest and I'm actually disappointed that you're stooping that low.

Yes, you may fear that they'll do something like that at some point in the distant future, but they have not done it yet, and we can't argue based on what could potentially one day happen. World war three could potentially happen. Nuclear holocaust could happen. That Yellowstone super volcano could happen. We don't know and we cannot argue in any remotely coherent and rational way based on what we don't know.
avatar
Matruchus: Look we all know its going to happen sooner or later. Its no use chasing tails and saying gog is good, gog is pure when we all know it is a business and mark my words this will happen since this is normal in every store that uses regional pricing.

I know that they are going for fixed exchange currency prices for now as we talked about it whole day long.
You're using the wrong word. You have a strong belief it will happen but belief is not knowledge. We don't know that GOG will change the price on the classics to something remotely close to the dollar equals euro scheme. If you think you know then show me some form of evidence, because I'm pretty sure I don't know that.

And I'm not saying GOG is good or pure. They're a business and like as I've said previously, businesses are predators and we're their food. But some predators have a nice and gentle way of eating you. Some predators and parasites actually end up in a somewhat symbiotic relationship with their source of food.
Post edited March 01, 2014 by dhundahl