Lol, i just had the thought of someone being interrogated by phr00t.

Do you know what I hate? Realizing after the fact that the argument I made in my previous post is complete bullshit. Sorry :)

You are right it is patronage. If you trust a developer, and you like the idea that he/she has, help them out. You don't support the project for the extras that you get. You support the project for a desire to see this game made.

Basically yes, but it's a matter of degrees. Some products are basically done and just need orders to cover the run and those are more like preorders than pledges as in some cases all the engineering and stuff is done, they just need the money for the first run.

Others like with Wasteland 2 and Shadow Run there's a ton of work that has to be done and they're asking for money to do that work and hopefully come up with something that you like.

Most products are somewhere in the middle or that spectrum. And KS seems to be trying to kick things a bit more towards the former with their recent policy changes.
Were they not aware that they could choose a lower level reward? If I donate $X I'm entitled to pick any reward up to that point, I don't have to choose the highest level reward that I'm eligible for. Most people do because they want the reward, if you don't want the reward you do have the option of opting for a lower reward or none at all.

No that's what I meant, sorry I wasn't more clear. Some pledged at a high level, but chose a lower reward, saying in the comments page that they didn't want InXile to waste money on physical rewards for them.

There's a reason I keep using that particular term, yet so many seem to fail to grasp the subtle difference. The difference is the important part, however, in this case.

Not for the lowest tiers though. You pay 15-25$ and you obtain a digital copy. Now the release price of a digital copy should be higher or equal. I am not sure but I will follow this development. My hope was that:

- I get the game a bit cheaper than later.
- I increase the chance of the game to be created.
- I support the developer of my choice.
- I get better games on average.

The collectors editions might be overpriced though.

I often see these discussions trying to stick a label to crowdfunding. Call it pre-order, patronage or investment, what you're doing is giving money to someone so that they can create or finish a project, and you're (optionally) getting stuff from it. Why does it have to be labeled a certain way to understand this simple concept?

In many cases, it feels like a pre-order at the low pledge levels. Which is why it's best to keep that price down. But as a concept it isn't. If I pledged to the Hermes Spacecraft I don't expect to get a spacecraft for my pledge. If I pledge to Divine Space I'm not pre-ordering it, because it's free to play. I just want it to happen.

I dont get the KS thing, I understand the principle, I just dont understand why people would fund it for more than the price of a physical game.

The "rewards" are a joke, I supposed you can also add the fuzzy gooey feeling you get inside when you help a game get started/finished, but I just see it as a scam (it's just my opinion), there is no finite completion date, no assurance of an actual product at the end, or whats going to be done with the money if a project fails.

But, at the end of the day, an items value is based on what someone will pay for it, different people have different perceptions of value.

I paid $10 to stay in beta for Path of Exile, I have a product to play and if it fails, well, I easily got my 10 bucks worth, but when I see what some people contributed to that project for basically "virtual" items, I kinda wonder about "values" people have.

If I had eg. $1000 bucks I didnt need and I had a choice for a game and a virtual, non-existant toy or on the other hand, give it to an established charity or even a bloody home for one eyed cats, I would give the game $50 bucks and the rest to the charity.

But, at the end of the day, its a persons own choice, what they do with their money, so if they want to give it to some nebulous entity, its their right to do so and hats off to them. I suppose it beats the shit out of EA or some other shower of assholes using gamers cash for lighting cigars and snorting coke of hookers thighs as they close another game dev down.

My point is that the semantic argument is polluting discussions. It has elements of all these things, which is why people liken it to them, but isn't precisely any of them. If you understand the concept then it doesn't matter what you call it.

I suppose, I thought the argument about what to call it was because people weren't attaching the appropriate meaning to the involvement.

Of course, I could be wrong.

There is a completion date. It's on all the rewards. There's just no guarantee of it. How does that make it a scam? If the product is delivered, it's certainly not a scam.

I don't know why you're surprised at the amount of money people are willing to pay. It's a minority of people, and they're not unusual in any way. People spend thousands of dollars on things which have no value to others, be that a gun from the civil war, a prototype graphics card or a rare comic book. Here at least these people are helping something become reality, they're doing something constructive.

The thing about Kickstarter is: you see something you want to happen, you help it happen. If you're the kind of person to just make do with what's around you and pick and choose (which is fine) then you'd see no point in that. If you like to help things happen, Kickstarter is an easy way to do it.
Perhaps, but I think that arguing about what is isn't doesn't help people understand it better. It's such a simple concept that if someone doesn't understand what it is they'd certainly not understand what it isn't.

Of course, the argument about the argument is not any more productive. :)

I (personal opinion) think its a scam because there is (as you say) NO guarantee, it will come to fruition. To me if I give money, its for a product or a service, not a "maybe we will/maybe we wont" delivery system.

As regards my "surprise" at the amount of money people give. I said it's up to people to choose what they do with their money, BUT, when I see some of the huge amounts of money given for "virtual" items, I kinda wonder about whether it could be spent on something more worthy than pixels.

It's just an opinion, it's not necessary to agree/disagree with it.

Edit for snippage

What if the product is not delivered on the "estimated" date?

Thank god research grants don't work that way.
"I have an idea of a new product, that may or may not work. I need $$$ to do the necessary R&D for that product, but I don't have access to the money. Will you be willing to give me the money in return for some products, assuming the Research pays off?"
Only difference with kickstarter is that instead of finding 1 person/entity with 10.000 moolah, you find 10.000 people/entities with 1 moolah each.