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General discussion (archive)Kickstarter project developer squanders $35K, files for bankruptcy(127 posts)(127 posts)
(127 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted October 02, 2012
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ktchong: Ouya to soon follow.
Nah. Ouya got huge investments. Unless they screw it up massively, Ouya will become a reality. And to be honest, Ouya looks really solid, they already have support from many third-party studios.
Posted October 02, 2012
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orcishgamer: I've received several already. I still remember the joy I had reading my first issue of Carbon Grey, it was beautiful and I had helped make it real in a small way. I couldn't put a price on that, not even for 10 times as much.

I could never pay a symphony to write and record a new masterpiece by myself, but I can help crowdfund it.

Crowdfunding is merely patronage with many patrons instead of one extraordinarily wealthy patron. The idea has existed for many years but it's only been recently that law and the internet made it possible.
Carbon Grey is beautiful. No regrets. That was $50 really well-spent.
Posted October 02, 2012
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orcishgamer: I've received several already. I still remember the joy I had reading my first issue of Carbon Grey, it was beautiful and I had helped make it real in a small way. I couldn't put a price on that, not even for 10 times as much.

I could never pay a symphony to write and record a new masterpiece by myself, but I can help crowdfund it.

Crowdfunding is merely patronage with many patrons instead of one extraordinarily wealthy patron. The idea has existed for many years but it's only been recently that law and the internet made it possible.
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lowyhong: Carbon Grey is beautiful. No regrets. That was $50 really well-spent.
That's one I'm sad I missed.
Posted October 02, 2012
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SimonG: Relevant articles:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/09/21/161587229/kickstarter-says-it-is-not-a-store-as-it-revises-policy-on-projects-risks


http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2012/09/03/160505449/when-a-kickstarter-campaign-fails-does-anyone-get-their-money-back
I saw those. I've also been bitten by a different project filing questionable legal paperwork to get a different project shut down.

It's one thing to do so when you've got some sort of evidence of infringement and quite another to do it because you've been out sold by somebody offering a better quality product for the same price.
Posted October 02, 2012
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666: It is not even an investment. It is a donation and that is it. If it works out for them then hopefully you get what they offered in return. Kickstarter is fine as long as people realize that.
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Liberty: According to Kickstarter's page, it says it is not a donation (which is what charity is). "Kickstarter does not allow charity, cause, or "fund my life" projects." So Kickstarter is most definitely an investment. What is so wrong with getting investment from investors and not financially ignorant gamers?

The other big problem with Kickstarter is that the best video games come from out of nowhere. (Richard Garriot at Comic-Con talked down Kickstarter since he knew crowds would never fund Ultima IV, Ultima VII, or Ultima Online as he had to fight his own developers to work on those games.)

Why do we need Kickstarter when there are better models available from the classic shareware model to Minecraft's 'pay a little for the alpha' to see if the market wants to buy it?
Richard Garriot is wrong. If he created a kickstarter for Ultima X (make it replace Ultima IX), it would easily get $1.000.000.
Posted October 02, 2012
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ktchong: Ouya to soon follow.
With a product as heavily hyped, and with as uncertain a business model as the Ouya, it's pretty much a given that it's either going to be the one great downfall of the public upsurge of Kickstarter, or its ultimate validation.

That being said, the story of FTL is proof that Kickstarter works in the gaming industry, when used properly.
Posted October 02, 2012
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ktchong: Ouya to soon follow.
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rampancy: With a product as heavily hyped, and with as uncertain a business model as the Ouya, it's pretty much a given that it's either going to be the one great downfall of the public upsurge of Kickstarter, or its ultimate validation.

That being said, the story of FTL is proof that Kickstarter works in the gaming industry, when used properly.
That project is going to break a lot of hearts. They've over promised what they're likely to be able to deliver. It's probably technically possible, but people aren't going to get free games as most people consider them. And they haven't finished what is going to be the hardest aspect of the project, the app store.

Additionally, last I checked, they didn't even have a prototype or finalized designs on the controllers.

It's probably possible for them to follow through, but the likelihood is just about nil.
Posted October 02, 2012
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hedwards: Additionally, last I checked, they didn't even have a prototype or finalized designs on the controllers.
Considering that the controller is arguably one of the most important (the most important?) hardware elements of a gaming console, their lack of actual hard prototypes (as opposed to 3D renderings or concept art) was really distressing.

That being said (again), I don't really have a huge amount of sympathy for people who went into a KS project while not being aware of what it really meant. At best, it really is an investment; at worst, it's a gamble. If you didn't take the time to realize that, and just threw money at a project like the Ouya or the Hanfree without doing due diligence, the fault is with you just as much as it is with the developers. Caveat Emptor.

In any case, is Carbon Grey going to see a general release in comic/book stores? eBook/PDF format? The artwork looks amazing.
Posted October 02, 2012
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rampancy: In any case, is Carbon Grey going to see a general release in comic/book stores? eBook/PDF format? The artwork looks amazing.
Glad you asked. You can find the electronic format here:
http://www.comixology.com/Carbon-Grey/comics-series/5705
Posted October 03, 2012
Ouya will fail because everything about it is unrealistic.

Ouya raised about $8 million, which may seem to be a lot to you and me, but it is an unrealistic budget -- it is simply not enough -- to launch a new console.

$99 is not a realistic price point for a console when the cost of its Tegra 3 CUP is $25. Let say they do not have to spend anything on everything else. They will be able to manufacture only about... 85,000 units. If a console sells fewer than 150,000 units in a week, it is considered as a failure. Ouya will not even be able to produce that many units with their entire Kickstarter fund.

When the Ouya project was announced, the first thing I googled (out of curiosity) was the people behind Ouya and their experiences, resumes and track records. They have none. They have no experience in making game consoles or working with any company that makes console (i.e., Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Sega, etc.) They do not have any experience in making any sort of hardware. They do not even have experience in developing or publishing games -- or even any sort of software. They have no business connection with game publishers and developers. They have no production experience. They have no manufacturing experience. They have no distribution experience. Those guys basically have nothing -- no business experience, no industry connection. So they are just a bunch of amateurs blowing smoke up people's arse.

They are supposed to launch Ouya early next year. March 2013. That is a very tight schedule. That is a unrealistic schedule, an unrealistic deadline, even for people who have a lot of experience in making consoles and games. Even people who have experience would need at least another year to design, produce and test the console. (Realistically, they need two.) And the Ouya guys have none, no experience or whatsoever. And they think they can deliver under such a tight, unrealistic schedule. Right now they do not even have a working prototype for Ouya.

People, you really just need a little bit of common sense to know if a business plan is realistic or not its proposed goals, scale, budget and schedule. Just look at Ouya: it overpromised, but the people doing it obviously do not have the budget, time or experience to deliver.

The thing with Kickstarter is that, when people donate to a project, they really should check the backgrounds, resumes, histories and track record of the company and people who are behind the Kickstarter project. Do those people have experience in the same or similar field? How much experience do they have? Have they successfully worked on a similar project in the past? Do they have industry connections and networks? Do they have ready access to experienced people who can work on the project? Do they already have a working prototype for the project?

The Ouya people have NONE. It's just a bunch of amatuers, who seems to me like some snake-oil salesmen and cons men, blowing smoke up people's arse, looking at Kickstarter as a get-rich-quick scheme.

Right now I am seeing a lot of Kickstarter projects that are launched by people who have NO experience or whatsoever, people who have never done an honest day of work in their lives, people who just look at Kickstarter as a way to get rich and get famous quickly without having to spend years earning valuable experience, learning the ropes and paying their due.

The biggest reason why I believe Ouya will fail is because those guys do not have any experience in doing anything remotely similar. Those guys just came out of nowhere with no experience, no track record, no connection, asking for a lot of money (but not enough to launch a console in a real world) to back their very unrealistic goal that lacks a clear direction, a realistic deadline and a working prototype.

Ouya will be an epic failure, alright. The good thing is that we'll see its failure very soon next year. Most likely there will be announcement first: that the project launch day has been delayed. That is the first sign of they're going to fail, because once the project gets delayed, they'll need more money to continue, and they ain't getting any more.
Post edited October 03, 2012 by ktchong
Posted October 03, 2012
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hedwards: That project is going to break a lot of hearts. They've over promised what they're likely to be able to deliver. It's probably technically possible, but people aren't going to get free games as most people consider them. And they haven't finished what is going to be the hardest aspect of the project, the app store.

Additionally, last I checked, they didn't even have a prototype or finalized designs on the controllers.

It's probably possible for them to follow through, but the likelihood is just about nil.
If I were to take a guess, I'd say that you'll be proven right. The idea isn't bad and I'm sure it's going to happen in the future, but the technical obstacles seem massive. Even if it succeeds, it's unlikely that many games will make use of it. If you look at the history of hardware, it shows that it's not about the quality of the hardware but about how much software you can get for it.
Posted October 03, 2012
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ktchong: The thing with Kickstarter is that, when people donate to a project, they really should check the backgrounds, resumes, histories and track record of the company and people who are behind the Kickstarter project. Do those people have experience in the same or similar field? How much experience do they have? Have they successfully worked on a similar project in the past? Do they have industry connections and networks? Do they have ready access to experienced people who can work on the project? Do they already have a working prototype for the project?

The Ouya people have NONE. It's just a bunch of amatuers, who seems to me like some snake-oil salesmen and cons men, blowing smoke up people's arse, looking at Kickstarter as a get-rich-quick scheme.
Whilst I also believe that the Ouya kickstarter will not be a success, and I agree with a lot of what you say, it's not true to say the people behind Ouya have no experience and are a bunch of amateurs.

If your google searches didn't come up with any experience or history for the people behind Ouya, you might want to have your google checked because it ain't working properly.
Posted October 03, 2012
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Liberty: According to Kickstarter's page, it says it is not a donation (which is what charity is). "Kickstarter does not allow charity, cause, or "fund my life" projects." So Kickstarter is most definitely an investment. What is so wrong with getting investment from investors and not financially ignorant gamers?

The other big problem with Kickstarter is that the best video games come from out of nowhere. (Richard Garriot at Comic-Con talked down Kickstarter since he knew crowds would never fund Ultima IV, Ultima VII, or Ultima Online as he had to fight his own developers to work on those games.)

Why do we need Kickstarter when there are better models available from the classic shareware model to Minecraft's 'pay a little for the alpha' to see if the market wants to buy it?
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Red_Avatar: Richard Garriot is wrong. If he created a kickstarter for Ultima X (make it replace Ultima IX), it would easily get $1.000.000.
Um, you do realize you just said Garriot would make $1. :P you put . instead of , . Well to be fair you can't really have more than 1 decimal place. Though to be fair considering how much of a revolting piece of crap Ultima IX (yes I know I own it, but it's for completionists sake) was I don't think X has a very high chance at being very good either.

As for Ouya, I never did bother with the Kickstarter but I did pre-order one from their site, and yes I kept the bill. I figure either it will get released and do well, or I will cancel my pre-order. If it tanks it's only a shy over $100 I've lost. To quote Doc Brown "Well, I thought, what the hell?"
Post edited October 03, 2012 by Theta_Sigma
Posted October 03, 2012
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ktchong: Ouya will fail because everything about it is unrealistic.

Ouya raised about $8 million, which may seem to be a lot to you and me, but it is an unrealistic budget -- it is simply not enough -- to launch a new console.

$99 is not a realistic price point for a console when the cost of its Tegra 3 CUP is $25. Let say they do not have to spend anything on everything else. They will be able to manufacture only about... 85,000 units. If a console sells fewer than 150,000 units in a week, it is considered as a failure. Ouya will not even be able to produce that many units with their entire Kickstarter fund.
I mostly agree with you, but $99 isn't necessarily unreasonable. The main thing which makes it questionable is volume. onLive sells a similar console for $99. I'm not sure what their volume is on that or what portion of the cost they expect to recoup on subscriptions.

But, $99 is doable.

And yeah, $8m seems like a lot of money until you realize that the start up cots involved with making molds for the cases and what not are extremely expensive. That first unit coming off the line can easily cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Unless they manage to convince a lot of people to buy games on the platform, I just don't see how they're going to be able to fund the rest of the development.

And given that they seemed to be going for free games as a selling point, I'm not sure it's going to happen.

I do hope I'm wrong about it, I was wrong about onLive, but I doubt that I'm wrong here. I just can't see where their revenue is going to come from to support the infrastructure.
Posted October 03, 2012
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Red_Avatar: Richard Garriot is wrong. If he created a kickstarter for Ultima X (make it replace Ultima IX), it would easily get $1.000.000.
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Theta_Sigma: Um, you do realize you just said Garriot would make $1. :P you put . instead of , . Well to be fair you can't really have more than 1 decimal place. Though to be fair considering how much of a revolting piece of crap Ultima IX (yes I know I own it, but it's for completionists sake) was I don't think X has a very high chance at being very good either.
Actually, you may be surprised but most countries use a period to indicate decimal places.

And a lot of people know Ultima IX failed because of EA. EA pushed for a 3rd person action game - and that's what they got. People would kill for an isometric RPG with movable 3D objects.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)Kickstarter project developer squanders $35K, files for bankruptcy(127 posts)(127 posts)
(127 posts)