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General discussion (archive)Just when you thought Valve couldn't sink any lower...(120 posts)(120 posts)
(120 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted December 19, 2014
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MarioFanaticXV: snip
Going all meta, this is related to becoming a multipolar world, rather than US dominated.
It's inevitable that more and more barriers will arise, at all levels; legal, economical, personal.
Posted December 19, 2014
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MarioFanaticXV: Their greed has reached the point that- even within their own barbed-wire fence- they will no longer allow people from different regions to gift games to each other. If you're a fan of Steam, you're encouraged to hate anyone that's from another country, as you are no longer allowed to trade with them, as though your countries were at war and had embargoes against one another.
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Pardinuz: To be honest, this has more to do with the average Steam users' greed than Steam's own greed.

I know for a fact that a huge portion of their customers only buy games - or used to - from Russian /Brazlian/ whatever-country-has-the-lowest-prices traders in exchange for Team Fortress 2 / Dota 2 / Counter Strike : Global Offensive Treasure keys which are used as currency for trading in a way that both parties make a profit. People were just asking for it all along and personally I couldn't care less.
And what's wrong with people in Russia doing this? If Steam can make a profit, why can't other people? If there are differences in prices of items, it's only natural for people where they are cheaper/more readily available to buy them and take them to where they are more expensive.

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darthspudius: Nothing quite like over reacting is there. Valve is one of the few reasons PC gaming is booming for crying out loud. You might not like what they're doing but there is ALOT worse out there than Valve. Oh how dare I defend them! (just getting it out there first)
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monkeydelarge: That is true. PC gaming is more mainstream than ever now
Really? I guess the fact that the amount of PC games I can find nowadays is near-zero is just my imagination. It used to be that there would be just as many PC games as a given console- usually more since they weren't limited to stocking current generation games. Now? It's hard to find them at all. It seems like some gaming stores don't even stock PC games at all anymore, just download codes.

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ET3D: Is this a troll or serious? Sounds too much like a joke.

Anyway, about the subject at hand, Valve led the way in offering lower prices in poorer regions. More reasonable prices helped people buy games instead of pirate them. I'm not sure if anyone else even does this kind of pricing. If you think that having a high global price is the way to go, I imagine you'd think that's evil, but personally I don't think you're in the right.
You ask me about trolling and t hen claim that this will help lower prices? They did this so that they don't have to deal with the realities of economics- because Steam has always known that in a fair, free, capitalist market, they would never survive. This is why they don't allow people to trade/sell used games, and instead lock them to a single account. This makes the global prices higher, not lower.

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Freakgs: Meh, I never used such keys as the games on sales are more than cheap enough.
Then again, I never got how people can think "cheap bastards who buy from cheap regions" when the same guys say "oh that clever company is producing in a market where labor is cheap and selling in areas where the price of goods is high".
That's globalization but somehow people start to think it's bad when people use it to their own advantage and not only (big) companies.

So, it's not really on topic, I'm just mildly annoyed how somebody can denounce others because they use globalization to their advantage, too.

Capitalism was never intended as a one way show and it still isn't. There's a reason why we have the word "Homo economicus".
At the same time a company can definitely say " we don't allow this in our market", that's fine. So my post really is only about those who're hypocrites when it comes to this topic.
Oh, no, that's more or less exactly on topic. This is the primary reason I'm upset about this. That and it also means that the yearly gift exchange I used to partake in will be a lot more barren for everyone. After this year, it probably won't be worth it- I have friends in all different countries that we used to gift each other, now? Now it won't be possible.
Posted December 19, 2014
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zeroxxx: I live in third world country and never once did I complain about my slow connection for Steam download.
Well, in 2007 when I started using Steam, PC downloads where still bearable with single-digit Mbit bandwidth. Wait one or two hours and ready to go. In 2013 I noticed, that I can't try out the stuff I bought on the same evening anymore, so that was the last sale for me.
You live in German you have no right to bitch about slow internet connection.
I don't bitch, because that doesn't help. I simply quit PC gaming. My existing library is big enough now. Occasionally I will a get classic on GOG. They have a better MB to gameplay ratio anyway. ;-)
Posted December 19, 2014
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zeroxxx: You live in German you have no right to bitch about slow internet connection.
Just because someone lives in a specific country does not mean he has fast internet. My parents live in a small town in Germany and the fastest internet they get is 125-150kB/s... so stop talking like you know everything.
Posted December 19, 2014
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MarioFanaticXV: Really? I guess the fact that the amount of PC games I can find nowadays is near-zero is just my imagination.
Yes it is
Posted December 19, 2014
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moonshineshadow: Just because someone lives in a specific country does not mean he has fast internet. My parents live in a small town in Germany and the fastest internet they get is 125-150kB/s... so stop talking like you know everything.
And how many people in German with that con?

Then come back to see Indonesia, where the average speed is 700 kbps. Bullshit. There's not even a comparison in the slightest.

And mind you, it's very common to see people with a mere 2.5G speed here. 3G is starting to blooming, 4G is non existent.
Post edited December 19, 2014 by zeroxxx
Posted December 19, 2014
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moonshineshadow: Just because someone lives in a specific country does not mean he has fast internet. My parents live in a small town in Germany and the fastest internet they get is 125-150kB/s... so stop talking like you know everything.
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zeroxxx: And how many people in German with that con?

Then come back to see Indonesia, where the average speed is 700 kbps. Bullshit. There's not even a comparison in the slightest.

And mind you, it's very common to see people with a mere 2.5G speed here. 3G is starting to blooming, 4G is non existent.
So according to the Akamai comparison the avarage speed of Indonesia is 2.4Mb/s... sure Germany has a higher avarage (8.1Mb/s) ... but seriously, it just shows that there are parts in each country with high speed and with low speed. And regardless where you are living, if your connection is slow it sucks, so yeah I am annoyed at your saying others don't have a right to complain just because other people in that country might have a good speed -.-
Posted December 19, 2014
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Freakgs: I've got FTTH ( 250mbit/s / 25 mbit/s ). In addition cable ( 100 / 10 ) and and dsl ( 16 mbit/s) would be available, too.
Thanks for leaning in to save some reputation. But I have to clarify: FTTH penetration in Germany is below 0.5 %. It's more exotic than E1 (T1 equivalent) was in the 90s (where everyone else had POTS modems). Broadband/TV cable expansion in urban areas also stopped in the 90s. In some places where cable is available, you can also get FTTC with up to 25-50 Mbit.

But for most people it's either Annex.B ADSL (worse than Annex.A used everywhere else) with 6 Mbit on average (some get only 2, very few get 10-16) or even 2G/3G/4G mobile with a few GB traffic allowance.

Which is fine for downloading a GOG classic here and there, but nothing useful for current AAA offerings on the PC digital distribution market. And Steam isn't even the worst, EA's Origin doesn't even allow you to save backups, it requires a complete redownload on every reinstall.
Posted December 19, 2014
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moonshineshadow: So according to the Akamai comparison the avarage speed of Indonesia is 2.4Mb/s... sure Germany has a higher avarage (8.1Mb/s) ... but seriously, it just shows that there are parts in each country with high speed and with low speed. And regardless where you are living, if your connection is slow it sucks, so yeah I am annoyed at your saying others don't have a right to complain just because other people in that country might have a good speed -.-
Just to clarify: My main argument was not just about "Internet connection is too slow". It's actually fast enough for surfing the web and stuff like YouTube works fine, too, even in HD. Though upload speed (below 1 Mbit) sucks.

The consideration I made was: "How well does it fit with the digital distribution model PC gaming is turning into." And my conclusion was: "Doesn't work for me anymore!" Now the game publishers release bigger games than ever and strip away distribution alternatives for DRM and cost-saving reasons (while keeping the savings for themselves).

They simply lost sight of their customer's needs, I won't jump through hoops to get their newest releases through a keyhole or even move to a more expensive place to get them faster. While gaming is nice hobby, it's not THAT important.
Post edited December 19, 2014 by jtsn
Posted December 19, 2014
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jtsn: Just to clarify: My main argument was not just about "Internet connection is too slow". It's actually fast enough for surfing the web and stuff like YouTube works fine, too, even in HD. Though upload speed (below 1 Mbit) sucks.
I know :-) I was just bothered by the reaction and generalization to your post.
Posted December 19, 2014
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MarioFanaticXV: And what's wrong with people in Russia doing this? If Steam can make a profit, why can't other people? If there are differences in prices of items, it's only natural for people where they are cheaper/more readily available to buy them and take them to where they are more expensive.
The IP law. You know, that law people pretend to respect when they publicly frown at torrents. You are not a licensor. You are not a legal distributor. You can't fucking resell copies of software without a distribution agreement with the IP owner, no more than you can sell CDs with the content of your GOG account, or buy up GOG gift keys during a 80% off sale and sell them at 30% off during dry spells. Bootleg keys is IP infringement (or "theft", if you're a copyright nut).
Posted December 19, 2014
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MarioFanaticXV: And what's wrong with people in Russia doing this? If Steam can make a profit, why can't other people? If there are differences in prices of items, it's only natural for people where they are cheaper/more readily available to buy them and take them to where they are more expensive.
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Starmaker: The IP law. You know, that law people pretend to respect when they publicly frown at torrents. You are not a licensor. You are not a legal distributor. You can't fucking resell copies of software without a distribution agreement with the IP owner, no more than you can sell CDs with the content of your GOG account, or buy up GOG gift keys during a 80% off sale and sell them at 30% off during dry spells. Bootleg keys is IP infringement (or "theft", if you're a copyright nut).
Copyright law is unjustifiable morally. It is used by those who could not compete in a free and fair market, and anyone who supports it is closer to a thief than those who "infringe" upon it could ever be.

Besides that, we're not even talking about copying and reselling, we're talking about reselling a single copy you bought.
Posted December 19, 2014
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Starmaker: The IP law. You know, that law people pretend to respect when they publicly frown at torrents. You are not a licensor. You are not a legal distributor. You can't fucking resell copies of software without a distribution agreement with the IP owner, no more than you can sell CDs with the content of your GOG account, or buy up GOG gift keys during a 80% off sale and sell them at 30% off during dry spells. Bootleg keys is IP infringement (or "theft", if you're a copyright nut).
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MarioFanaticXV: Copyright law is unjustifiable morally. It is used by those who could not compete in a free and fair market, and anyone who supports it is closer to a thief than those who "infringe" upon it could ever be.

Besides that, we're not even talking about copying and reselling, we're talking about reselling a single copy you bought.
Hello, I'm your friendly local neighborhood musician. I like owning the rights to my music and I enjoy the complete control over my music that comes with it. I DON'T like when someone decides to use my music in a commercial way without my express permission, those ways including re-recording my music and selling their versions, or using my music in a commercially released film. Copyright laws protect me and my works and often times my financial livelihood.. How does wanting that protection make me a "thief"?

Or to take it out of the entertainment industry; lets say your boss assigns you a task. The task is you must create a chart graph depicting the expected costs and expected pay off of a new marketing campaign. If you complete the task you will earn a $10 raise. You spend weeks on the chart graph and just as you're headed to your boss' office with it a coworker rushes over and shoves you to the ground, picks the chart graph off the floor and signs their name to it and presents it to your boss. The boss is impressed by the chart (which now bears both of your signatures) and gives each of you a $5 raise (splitting the original raise). Is that fair to you? What if you had been unable to sign the chart at all and had completely lost out on the raise?

On your other note: I would assume (having not read the Terms of Service in a while) that your use of Steam is limited completely to non-commercial use. So buying and reselling even a single Steam key (without being a licensed reseller) is already against the rules. Before that opens up a can of "That proves Steam is evil!", Amazon, iTunes, eMusic and most other digital download stores including GOG itself has a similar outlook on that.
Posted December 19, 2014
low rated
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MarioFanaticXV: Copyright law is unjustifiable morally. It is used by those who could not compete in a free and fair market, and anyone who supports it is closer to a thief than those who "infringe" upon it could ever be.

Besides that, we're not even talking about copying and reselling, we're talking about reselling a single copy you bought.
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NoNewTaleToTell: Hello, I'm your friendly local neighborhood musician. I like owning the rights to my music and I enjoy the complete control over my music that comes with it. I DON'T like when someone decides to use my music in a commercial way without my express permission, those ways including re-recording my music and selling their versions, or using my music in a commercially released film. Copyright laws protect me and my works and often times my financial livelihood.. How does wanting that protection make me a "thief"?

Or to take it out of the entertainment industry; lets say your boss assigns you a task. The task is you must create a chart graph depicting the expected costs and expected pay off of a new marketing campaign. If you complete the task you will earn a $10 raise. You spend weeks on the chart graph and just as you're headed to your boss' office with it a coworker rushes over and shoves you to the ground, picks the chart graph off the floor and signs their name to it and presents it to your boss. The boss is impressed by the chart (which now bears both of your signatures) and gives each of you a $5 raise (splitting the original raise). Is that fair to you? What if you had been unable to sign the chart at all and had completely lost out on the raise?

On your other note: I would assume (having not read the Terms of Service in a while) that your use of Steam is limited completely to non-commercial use. So buying and reselling even a single Steam key (without being a licensed reseller) is already against the rules. Before that opens up a can of "That proves Steam is evil!", Amazon, iTunes, eMusic and most other digital download stores including GOG itself has a similar outlook on that.
Because your "protection" comes at the cost of fair competition. It's an artificial monopoly. Just because someone is the first to do something does not mean that you are the only one who should be allowed to do such, and by preventing a fair market, you have essentially stolen your competitor's chance to prove themselves. If someone can play their song ten times better than you can, why shouldn't they be able to profit from it? They're not doing anything to prevent you from continuing to do such.

Your analogy doesn't work at all because the boss is commissioning you to do the graph- they are paying for the service, not the graph itself. If someone wanted to photocopy the graph and study it, I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to. Likewise, musicians and such could work for patronage and other such methods that don't require them to give up their dignity and fairness. Or do you believe that musicians didn't exist before copyright law?

And ad hominem tu quoque is a horrible excuse for anything. Just because you can name other abusers doesn't justify the abuse.
Post edited December 19, 2014 by MarioFanaticXV
Posted December 19, 2014
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Starmaker: The IP law [...] You can't fucking resell copies of software without a distribution agreement with the IP owner
Sorry, but that's wrong. Please learn about the the first-sale doctrine and the exhaustion doctrine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaustion_doctrine

This is stuff which has been clarified during the last century already. If game distributors had legal means to restrict cross-region trading they wouldn't implement finicky DRM measures hurting their customers and sue the hell out of the traders instead.
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This is my favourite topic
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General discussion (archive)Just when you thought Valve couldn't sink any lower...(120 posts)(120 posts)
(120 posts)