It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
avatar
dirtyharry50: That's a nice try at inventing some new worthless category for consumer entertainment products but it ain't gonna fly with most people, including me.
It's an attempt at a logical fallacy called Special Pleading, iirc.

The whole argument that game developers/publishers should receive things that no one else does and be allowed to do things no one else is allowed, is rife with all sorts of fallacies. From Special Pleading, to Appeals to Fear & Pity, and other attempts to distract.
avatar
crazy_dave: snip
avatar
SimonG: Well, I still care about PC gamers, at least the ones here on this forum. Others I can more easily ingore ;-). But I try to avoid politics on the internet altogether. There are some many things I would like to ask about the election, but I think this might get problematic very fast.

And screw CNN. This is all you ever need.
Don't worry I visit several news sites and I like quite a few of those (btw Time and CNN are both Turner media in case you didn't know). It's true that some have less odious comments sections than others - I was really impressed once with the Guardian's comment section, but that was a couple of years ago and I don't often visit. Also it's not that the comments section is actually relevant to me in how I view the site as a whole - i.e. I don't participate in them and in fact sometimes I'd rather they didn't exist at all since they just go to show how ... un-evolved a good number of people really are and I'd like to keep my naive perception that people aren't that truly awful. But as you say, that is quite off-topic.

avatar
SimonG: On the topic:

I don't know how it is in the US, but over here games were never goods. They were treated as goods in many aspects and still are. But they were always licensed works of other people. So I can't really concede there.

And I think the EULAs have always been there, but simply ignored because they couldn't be enforced. Let me see if I can get the Half Life 2 judgement translated and in your direction(well, the core meanings of cours). Don't wait for it though, it's tough enough in german.
I would be willing to concede a third category or the creation of new laws governing the sale of digital goods (no other word for it really), but sadly the trends indicate that those would probably be representative of the industry lobbyist's wishes and not what's best for the consumers. I don't think the battle is over, but I'm no longer optimistic that we'll get the rights we have enjoyed for physical media for centuries back for digital media. We let them go because we didn't realize that one day they'd actually be able to enforce their supposition that we didn't own the copies we bought from them and now that supposition is considered the "tradition" of the market rather than consumer's owning the copy bought as it had been. Licenses mean you only get the rights the company selling you the product deems it appropriate for you to have and you can either accept or you don't get to play the game, watch the movie, or read the book. We have fewer rights with e-books thant with books apparently as Amazon showed when they decided that they couldn't have sold an e-book. It's fine to stop selling it, but they tried to take it away from people who had bought it - sure they were going to give refunds, but that's not the point. They recanted because of the uproar, but noted that according to the EULA they had the right to do it. Steam can in principle take away your right access the games you've legally bought. Even GOG during the JoWood crises told everyone to download their JoWood games just in case because they couldn't be sure that not only would they have to stop selling JoWood games (thankfully they didn't), but that they might even have to remove those games off of people's shelves. Sure GOG games are DRM-free and thus you can circumvent this easily, but according to the legal novum principle that we only have a license and not a copy, that can be done. And that's sad. Ultimately it's bad for the market when consumers don't own the products they've bought. Consumers deserve (yes, deserve and yes this is entitlement and yes in this case it's deserve) to have protections and guarantees in the markets they do business in just as much as companies need to have protections for their end. Companies calling all the shots is in the end bad for us and bad for business. Truly healthy capitalism is based on both the seller and consumer trusting that they are both getting a fair deal and are protected. Trust is a lot easier when the law gives protection for both the seller and the consumer.

We've been really gung-ho about giving companies protection and rights in the new digital age. Not so much in giving the consumer protection and rights. You mention that knee-jerk reactions on the consumer side like a SOPA bill giving consumers rights could be bad if well intentioned ... well, maybe ... but frankly I don't see anyone even trying to pass any kind of legislation protecting consumers in the digital age. It all seems to be "but have we given the industries enough power yet?" The arguments that won out against SOPA seem to be that it was bad for internet business. Sure the nerd rage of the internet helped, but no one who mattered really seemed to care about the effect on consumers. Sorry for the jaded cynicism and pessimism but all the trends are in the wrong direction for consumer protection in the new age. Which is such a shame because it holds such promise for everyone concerned - sellers, consumers, everyone - and there are indeed so many upsides. When music went DRM-free and then I discovered GOG, I used to think - okay there are some people who care about consumers and we really can have the digital utopia we all thought we were going to get. Keep in mind I think that some DRM is fine, but these were just moves that signaled to me that at least some in the industry were beginning to realize that customers are not their enemy and that they could make money, maybe even more money, by not restricting the rights of consumers. Thus the industry themselves would lead on consumer protections.

But the last year and a bit have just been brutal on the consumer protection front. Instead of being weakened, DMCA is no considered not strong enough and consumers seem to have very little sway in the halls of power. Very discouraging.
Post edited February 09, 2012 by crazy_dave
avatar
crazy_dave: But the last year and a bit have just been brutal on the consumer protection front. Instead of being weakened, DMCA is no considered not strong enough and consumers seem to have very little sway in the halls of power. Very discouraging.
I'm fully with you on the "ideoligical side". Maybe a little bit more optimistic because of my cheerful german nature. But I understand this is a very disturbing trend in the US. Videogames need to be recognized as culturally significant. Once this thought settles, interest groups should become more vocal. And you can always write your congressman ;-).

Maybe this will cheer you up: (Point 9) not much, but at least some equality to physical goods. That could mean hell for GOG in my case ;-).

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=MEMO/11/675&type=HTML

And not excactly on this front, but as I have mentioned in other threads the "shakedown" tactic used by law firm is no longer very usefull as the courts slowly understand how this internet thingy works.

(And, if everything else fails, we still have "rampant piracy" to call back on)

avatar
crazy_dave: Don't worry I visit several news sites and I like quite a few of those (btw Time and CNN are both Turner media in case you didn't know).
I know, and I really don't think that CNN is bad when it comes to independence or news itself (Don Simpson is also a very good anchorman. He is still there, is he?) What really bugs me about CNN is their "holo projector" shennanigans and all that nonesense. They try so hard to be "hip" and modern, it really hurts sometimes. Did Walter Cronkite have a freaking holo projector?
avatar
crazy_dave: But the last year and a bit have just been brutal on the consumer protection front. Instead of being weakened, DMCA is no considered not strong enough and consumers seem to have very little sway in the halls of power. Very discouraging.
avatar
SimonG: I'm fully with you on the "ideoligical side". Maybe a little bit more optimistic because of my cheerful german nature. But I understand this is a very disturbing trend in the US. Videogames need to be recognized as culturally significant. Once this thought settles, interest groups should become more vocal. And you can always write your congressman ;-).

Maybe this will cheer you up: (Point 9) not much, but at least some equality to physical goods. That could mean hell for GOG in my case ;-).

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=MEMO/11/675&type=HTML

And not excactly on this front, but as I have mentioned in other threads the "shakedown" tactic used by law firm is no longer very usefull as the courts slowly understand how this internet thingy works.

(And, if everything else fails, we still have "rampant piracy" to call back on)
Normally I'm a lot more optimistic, but maybe I set my sights too high, too soon as I thought the trends even within the media industry seemed to support more consumer rights and that seems to be not true. I'm thus more depressed than I would've been if I hadn't been so optimistic in the first place. :) It's good to see Europe trying to increase consumer protections - I think GOG will be fine, I couldn't see anything that would hurt them.

avatar
SimonG: I know, and I really don't think that CNN is bad when it comes to independence or news itself (Don Simpson is also a very good anchorman. He is still there, is he?) What really bugs me about CNN is their "holo projector" shennanigans and all that nonesense. They try so hard to be "hip" and modern, it really hurts sometimes. Did Walter Cronkite have a freaking holo projector?
Yeah CNN does really seem to go in for the silliness. Sometimes I shake my head and wonder what they think they get out of it. Brian Williams though is my favorite anchor. I don't watch the news all that often - especially since I don't actually have a TV so I typically read the news - but if I did, it would probably be Williams' NBC Nightly News or The News Hour on PBS. But yeah we're getting way off track now. :)
Post edited February 09, 2012 by crazy_dave
I just read this article and thought you guys might find it interesting. Apparently somebody has setup shop selling digital media second hand and the issue has gone to court:

http://blogs.computerworld.com/19707/legally_resell_used_mp3s_yes_judge_hands_round_1_to_redigi_not_capitol_records?source=CTWNLE_nlt_pm_2012-02-09

Interesting read considering what's been discussed here.
Newsflash! This just in:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/activision-blizzard-posts-1-billion-profit-in-2011-6350085

Apparently if you deliver the goods gamers want, turning a profit is not a problem even with second hand game sales and piracy for that matter.
avatar
dirtyharry50: I just read this article and thought you guys might find it interesting. Apparently somebody has setup shop selling digital media second hand and the issue has gone to court:

http://blogs.computerworld.com/19707/legally_resell_used_mp3s_yes_judge_hands_round_1_to_redigi_not_capitol_records?source=CTWNLE_nlt_pm_2012-02-09

Interesting read considering what's been discussed here.
Fascinating! Went to the website ... but since iTunes music is DRM-free these days ... how do they actually verify that it is your one and only copy? I notice for instance that they don't accept music ripped from a CD, only iTunes music presumably for that reason. (https://www.redigi.com/learn.html) If iTunes music were DRM'ed liked it used to be - and like e-books and movies are still and they say they want to move to include those - it would be trivial to determine that you had only the one copy of the item or to de-authorize your iTunes account from being able to play/read any other copies on other computers and devices you have. I'm almost tempted to try it out just to see the particulars on how it works - i.e. how it interacts with devices synced to my iTunes account, etc ...

Great to see someone pushing this! I would note that they say they send some of the money back to the artists on each sale though by first-sale doctrine they don't have to. Good on them.

https://www.redigi.com/home.html
avatar
dirtyharry50: Newsflash! This just in:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/activision-blizzard-posts-1-billion-profit-in-2011-6350085

Apparently if you deliver the goods gamers want, turning a profit is not a problem even with second hand game sales and piracy for that matter.
Not too shabby :)
Post edited February 10, 2012 by crazy_dave
avatar
dirtyharry50: I just read this article and thought you guys might find it interesting. Apparently somebody has setup shop selling digital media second hand and the issue has gone to court:

http://blogs.computerworld.com/19707/legally_resell_used_mp3s_yes_judge_hands_round_1_to_redigi_not_capitol_records?source=CTWNLE_nlt_pm_2012-02-09

Interesting read considering what's been discussed here.
One should note that Wired ran this story too and apparently the judge has indicated that despite disallowing the injunction, he thinks Capitol Records has a good case. Reselling DRM-free is tricky - even I think that's on the dicey side, but maybe there is a way to do it well.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/02/pre-owned-music-lawsuit-2/
Post edited February 10, 2012 by crazy_dave
You're right, he is an idiot.
avatar
crazy_dave: Reselling DRM-free is tricky - even I think that's on the dicey side, but maybe there is a way to do it well.
True enough, but it seems to me that SOMETHING needs to be done or established about... well, digital stuff in general, never mind digital, DRM-free stuff.

I don't think people are, or indeed would ever be, ready to accept that they don't own shit. Someone gets a DD game or an eBook, and they'll say "I bought a new eBook" or "I buy all my games on Steam". As far as they are concerned, they bought it, they own it. Technically, they don't own a damn thing. But try telling them that: "Oh, if I lose my account, I'll just pirate all the games/books I own".

So yeah, this is something that had to happen eventually, and one way or another it's going to be fascinating to watch it all play out.
avatar
crazy_dave: Reselling DRM-free is tricky - even I think that's on the dicey side, but maybe there is a way to do it well.
avatar
granny: True enough, but it seems to me that SOMETHING needs to be done or established about... well, digital stuff in general, never mind digital, DRM-free stuff.

I don't think people are, or indeed would ever be, ready to accept that they don't own shit. Someone gets a DD game or an eBook, and they'll say "I bought a new eBook" or "I buy all my games on Steam". As far as they are concerned, they bought it, they own it. Technically, they don't own a damn thing. But try telling them that: "Oh, if I lose my account, I'll just pirate all the games/books I own".

So yeah, this is something that had to happen eventually, and one way or another it's going to be fascinating to watch it all play out.
Agreed - a very interesting new frontier.
avatar
crazy_dave: Fascinating! Went to the website ... but since iTunes music is DRM-free these days ... how do they actually verify that it is your one and only copy? I notice for instance that they don't accept music ripped from a CD, only iTunes music presumably for that reason. (https://www.redigi.com/learn.html) If iTunes music were DRM'ed liked it used to be - and like e-books and movies are still and they say they want to move to include those - it would be trivial to determine that you had only the one copy of the item or to de-authorize your iTunes account from being able to play/read any other copies on other computers and devices you have. I'm almost tempted to try it out just to see the particulars on how it works - i.e. how it interacts with devices synced to my iTunes account, etc ...
How do used record stores verify that you haven't made a copy of the CD you're selling? How do used book stores verify that you haven't photocopied the book you're getting rid of?

If that company is taking steps to deauthorize that song track on your iTunes account, that should be good enough. Iirc, they also do not allow music purchased from Amazon's MP3 store.
avatar
Fomalhaut30: How do used record stores verify that you haven't made a copy of the CD you're selling? How do used book stores verify that you haven't photocopied the book you're getting rid of?

If that company is taking steps to deauthorize that song track on your iTunes account, that should be good enough. Iirc, they also do not allow music purchased from Amazon's MP3 store.
There is no such thing as de-authorization on iTunes for music anymore - iTunes has been DRM-free and hasn't required authorization for playing iTunes (or any music) for years. That's the problem. Please understand that I do not necessarily agree with the following (nor do I necessarily disagree), but I feel it is important to lay out, clearly and without bias the opposing argument. The argument for why this method is copyright infringement is as follows: to transfer a purely digital file, unlike with media tied to a physical thing, necessitates a copy first, then delete. The record company argues that the store does not have the right to make the initial copy even if they make or think they make a deletion afterwards. Current law would stipulate that the copy process is against copyright. Further they claim, that since the music is DRM-free the delete process isn't clean to ensure that the material was actually transferred and not just copied, but their strongest argument would appear to be that the initial copy process is what's violating copyright. The judge seems to indicate they have a case, but whether or not they will win on these grounds is unclear.

The difference with physical media, is that while you have to trust that someone hasn't deliberately copied a physical item before transferring, here once something has already been transferred - thus there are briefly multiple owners - you have to then ensure that you properly dispose of all copies from the original owner. Physical media thus requires active dishonesty for the transfer to be a copy, while DRM-free digital media requires active honesty or at least a great deal more trust that the transfer is indeed a transfer and not copying of ownership. Current laws cover the transfer of physical goods, but not the copy-delete transfer of DRM-free digital goods.

As you yourself pointed out however, let's say that iTunes music had to play through iTunes and it had to be authorized? E-books, movies, and audiobooks are still like this both in iTunes and practically every other major store that sells them. Then you have a point. The transfer is a true transfer without a real copy process - all that is required is that when one iTunes, or say Steam, account becomes authorized to play a movie or a game, etc ... the seller has simultaneously been de-authorized to play said item. The catch is if someone had deliberately cracked and then copied their now sold DRM'ed media, but as you say that's no different at all from someone deliberately copying the media off of their physical disk. In fact, doing so is actually harder with DRM'ed media than just simple physical media - perhaps not hard, but certainly harder. So really with account-based DRM purely digital material, there are just as many if not many more protections to ensure the transfer process was indeed a transfer as with physical media. Thus, to me it would seem obvious that systems with account-based DRM should also allow the transfer of that media. However, one should recognize that transferring ownership of DRM-free material is indeed trickier and not quite the same process as we currently have with physical media and thus may not be covered by current first-sale doctrine.

Unfortunately for ReDigi, iTunes music is DRM-free with no authorization required even within iTunes to play music bought on iTunes or elsewhere. They say they want to expand to e-books and movies and I think they should've started with those since for every major store including iTunes those are still under DRM and require account authorization. They would've had a much stronger position to argue that their transfer process was compliant with current first-sale doctrine.
Post edited February 10, 2012 by crazy_dave
Edit - It's not in the article I linked, but I could swear that they said somewhere it would prevent reobtaining. One potential way of doing it is by saying that a user's account could only upload/sell a single copy of a song. Or some form of forensics that compares two tracks from a single user to see if they are from the same iTunes purchase.

The very act of putting something into your computer's memory would violate copyright if they were strict about it, since it tends to exist in both RAM and semi-permanent storage.
Post edited February 10, 2012 by Fomalhaut30
avatar
Fomalhaut30: I believe that I've read on other sites that ReDigi does something to a user's iTunes account that would prevent them from redownloading the track. So long as the track does not exist in two places at one time and that they prevent the seller from reobtaining the track without further purchase, I would think they'd be ok. That's what I meant by deauthorize.

The very act of putting something into your computer's memory would violate copyright if they were strict about it, since it tends to exist in both RAM and semi-permanent storage.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2012/01/used-digital-music-file-seller-no-copying-here-almost.ars
True but this involves copying in the act of transferring ownership from one entity - the user - to another - ReDigi. They don't care about temporary RAM storage that you also own. That's why they're being more prickly in this case. :)

Sure a user can't re-download, but as I said, copy-delete of DRM-free may not be covered under first-sale by virtue of the difference in process - i.e. that first act of copying - and comes with the thorny issue of how good your delete process really is. It's a lot more tricky. That's why the title of the arstechnica article is "no copying here ... almost" - unfortunately for ReDigi, that almost is important.

It should be an interesting case. I just wish ReDigi had done it with DRM'ed material like movies which come with DRM but have historically not been thought of as licensed, but owned. They could've made a really strong case and possibly set precedence about digital material and ownership. If they lose this case, I worry about future efforts which might have had more chance of success. :/
Post edited February 10, 2012 by crazy_dave