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crazy_dave: snip
I find that the "pre-order" bonuses haven't increased that dramatically. It is usually just some guns or unnecessary fluff. That has been there since the current generation of consoles. What has increased are those "first day free with new game DLCs" but those aren't targeted at pre-orders, but "against" the used games market. And the digital distribution is expanding rapidly, so far it's EA, Ubisoft, Paradox and CDP to name only those that came into my mind without checking.

And I can't really see that the industry is in any kind of trouble right now. I would guess that e.g. "Double Fine" would a) be out of business right now and b) no longer releasing their games for the PC without digital "account based" distribution (both on consoles and on PC).
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crazy_dave: snip
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SimonG: I find that the "pre-order" bonuses haven't increased that dramatically. It is usually just some guns or unnecessary fluff. That has been there since the current generation of consoles. What has increased are those "first day free with new game DLCs" but those aren't targeted at pre-orders, but "against" the used games market. And the digital distribution is expanding rapidly, so far it's EA, Ubisoft, Paradox and CDP to name only those that came into my mind without checking.

And I can't really see that the industry is in any kind of trouble right now. I would guess that e.g. "Double Fine" would a) be out of business right now and b) no longer releasing their games for the PC without digital "account based" distribution (both on consoles and on PC).
My sense it has increased a lot - it may be unnecessary fluff, but it is increasing. I remember the thread about Batman: Arkham City for instance were people began lamenting all the different pre-order bonuses you got from the various outlets and the confusing and large range of them. This is becoming the norm rather than the exception - people bringing out "collector editions" for brand new IP before the game is released seems to be the new thing.

I didn't say digital distribution or account based distribution was a bad thing or harmful to the industry. In fact, I am hugely positive about digital distribution both DRM-free and account-based DRM. I am however arguing that being able to resell a game on an account based system far from hurting the games industry would actually be a boon to it. Despite my somewhat hyperbolic metaphor of hills and cliffs earlier I don't believe the games industry will crash due to their unwarranted and myopic hatred of used games. I'm simply pointing out the irony that clamping down on the used games market is in the end most harmful to themselves. To invoke the old adage: They're cutting off their nose to spite their face.

With properly implemented systems to sell used games digitally, Steam, Origin, Battle.net, Amazon, and yes even the non-distributing publishers stand to make a killing off used digital game sales. That a digital copy never deteriorates far from being a negative to the games industry means they can take a cut of the sale from the same used game being sold over and over and over again ... and because it doesn't go bad, it retains its base value much more: no worries about scratched or warped discs, or failed cartridges. That keeps the price of used digital games high, not low. Far from saying that account based digital distribution is a bad thing, I'm saying that they're not exploiting its potential to its fullest. Whoever gets there first (and best) with used digital distribution stands to make a lot of money and really propel the games industry forward as Steam did for first-sale digital distribution. It will be a better system for them and a better system for the consumers. A win-win.
Post edited February 01, 2012 by crazy_dave
I don't know about Gamestop. Searching a store reveals that to visit the nearest one, I have to cross the frontier and go to Italy... Gamestop is mostly an American "problem", and has a small impact, at best, in Europa. Small specialized stores mostly sells old used PSX/Genesis/NES/etc. games, providing an unique and useful service.

The "pirate only"/"used sales buyer only"/"new sales buyer only" is quite rare. A lot of people does a mix of the three: buy a new game and a used one or two in the same store, and maybe download another later. Nearly every gamer brings money to the publisher.

Prices are obscene, reviews are unreliable, and if the game doesn't run well (or at all!) on your system you are on your own. The fact is buying ANY PC game is a gamble, a big gamble, a costly gamble.

How much money are customers willing to risk with the possible outcome an unusable DVD? I bought used games that would definitely have disgusted me from video games had I paid full prices. I bought new games in compilations (Where are they? Is the Orange Box the ONLY modern physical compil?) that only one or two would appeals to me.

There's a world crisis, video games aren't a priority, feeding myself and having a roof over the head is. Either they sells every game digitally - with a price according the limitations, either they provides the customers a way out of a bad sale, either they cuts-down the prices by a factor of four or five. Publishers can't have both money AND control, they must choose.
Parcel Gamer wants developers to benefit from used game sales.
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timppu: So are you saying your main motivation for buying several copies of Skyrim was to support Bethesda, not so much to own and/or play them (or let someone else to play them)? Good for you, then.

Do you do that (ie. buy several copies of the same new game) for most new games you buy, or was that a rare occurence? I'm not talking about re-buying e.g. a GOG game that you may own already on CD, that's a different issue and I have done that too many times.

Do you think most people buying games are like you, ie. they normally buy several copies of the same game?
I am not saying that I bought several copies to support Bethesda. My point is that even though I bought two copies at a discounted price, that does not imply that I am not supporting them. I buy two or more copies of games quite often. Sometimes on different platforms, other times to gift the games (I have probably bought Mount & Blade seven or eight times in total). A quick glance at my Steam account shows that there are approx 100 games I have bought more than once (as an example: three copies of both Risen and Divinity 2: DKS, one for me, one for my girlfriend and one for a friend of mine).

And no, I do not think that everyone are like me. I do, however, think that the motivation for buying a game differs from time to time. Sometimes people pick up a game they normally would not buy, just because it is cheap.

Most games I buy are discounted, but I still buy 20 or so games at full price every year. I will support Bethesda, Piranha Bytes, CD Project etc (not to mention quality Indie developers), but I will not buy a game from Bioware unless it is heavily discounted.
Well i would happily to give extra money for the developers if they wanted money from the used games, and also i would love to see them giving extra support for their old games as well.

Today i managed to buy Halo 1 & Gansters 1 for the for 5€ and i'm a lousy customer who wont buy those games "NEW".. oh wait i can't buy those games from Steam or any other sites :)

So if i wanna buy a old Megadrive, Nes, Snes, PS1, PS2 etc. games then i have to buy them used and i don't wanna buy a lousy digital game for my console, and i wish PS3 / Xbox 360 had a DRM-Free store like GOG.Com :)
Well i would happily to give extra money for the developers if they wanted money from the used games,
You're one of these dudes who pay $10-15 for online passes for EA games?
Well i would happily to give extra money for the developers if they wanted money from the used games,
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keeveek: You're one of these dudes who pay $10-15 for online passes for EA games?
Nope. I'm not buying any NEW EA / Ubisoft tittles new, so i'll try to find those games used or bargain bins, but i decided sometime ago that i won't buy any games that used EA's Origin platform.
But they want your money for used games, they suit your description. :P
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RealWeaponX: Parcel Gamer wants developers to benefit from used game sales.
You'd be better off using one of the disc swapping sites, you trade for a set number of points and print of pregenerated labels to ship. Trades cost 1 dollar. Each game or DLC disk trades for a fixed number of points (which depreciates over time). Super easy and you'll get more for your money than the dude offering 30% more than Gamestop.
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crazy_dave: A couple of points, yes there are lower costs associated with digital selling, but mosts of the costs even in retail are still game development and a very small fraction are the actual physical packaging and distribution. So the difference between retail and digital isn't as great as most people would imagine and should be far outweighed by the fact that retail has to clear out old inventory to make room for new inventory - the bargain bin.
It's important to distinguish between marginal costs, which include things like manufacturing costs and shipping costs, and fixed costs, which include the development costs. Marginal costs can have a significant impact on the optimal price point, while fixed costs have no impact on optimal price point. I looked around a bit, and while it's tough to find any case studies involving solid numbers, in general it seems that manufacturing costs for disc-based games are pretty low, around $1-2 (cartridge games can have significantly higher manufacturing costs, up to $10 it seems). For console games there's also the per-unit royalty costs paid to the console manufacturer, which seem to run in the range of $2-5. Unfortunately I wasn't able to find any numbers on shipping costs, but they do seem to be significant enough the game companies take measures to reduce them (such as decreasing the size of manuals, in order to reduce package weight). For the sake of simplicity I won't even try to factor in elements like botched manufacturing runs, overstock, etc.

Now, when considering a game selling at full price these kinds of marginal costs don't mean much when comparing digital sales and retail sales. However, once you start reducing the price they can start to factor in much more significantly. For instance, consider a digitally distributed PC game which could have a marginal cost of under $1, and the equivalent console game which could have a marginal cost of around $5. Now, let's say both are put on sale at $10. At that price the PC game is still delivering a per-unit profit of $9, while the console game is only delivering a per-unit profit of $5- the decrease in price would have to result in twice as many sales for the console game vs the PC game for the sale price to have the same benefit. Basically, once the sale price starts getting close to the marginal cost you'll start seeing major effects on profits, regardless of the absolute value of the marginal costs. This most definitely has an impact on the optimal price point and the effectiveness of sales.

And this doesn't even take into account the merchant. Another big difference between games sold through physical retailers and games sold through digital distributors is that (as far as I know) retailers operate on a wholesale model, while digital distributors operate on something closer to an agency model. This means that retailers pay a certain cost upfront for the games, which they are then free to markup or discount as they please, but because of that upfront cost their own marginal cost for each game is pretty high, making large discounts even less worthwhile for them unless they're just trying to clear stock. On the other hand, when digital distributors operating through an agency model offer a discount the decrease in profit per unit is borne by both the publisher and the distributor, and as a result neither is dealing with a high marginal cost that limits the extent to which the game can be reasonably discounted.
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DarrkPhoenix: It's important to distinguish between marginal costs, which include things like manufacturing costs and shipping costs, and fixed costs, which include the development costs. Marginal costs can have a significant impact on the optimal price point, while fixed costs have no impact on optimal price point. I looked around a bit, and while it's tough to find any case studies involving solid numbers, in general it seems that manufacturing costs for disc-based games are pretty low, around $1-2 (cartridge games can have significantly higher manufacturing costs, up to $10 it seems). For console games there's also the per-unit royalty costs paid to the console manufacturer, which seem to run in the range of $2-5. Unfortunately I wasn't able to find any numbers on shipping costs, but they do seem to be significant enough the game companies take measures to reduce them (such as decreasing the size of manuals, in order to reduce package weight). For the sake of simplicity I won't even try to factor in elements like botched manufacturing runs, overstock, etc.

Now, when considering a game selling at full price these kinds of marginal costs don't mean much when comparing digital sales and retail sales. However, once you start reducing the price they can start to factor in much more significantly. For instance, consider a digitally distributed PC game which could have a marginal cost of under $1, and the equivalent console game which could have a marginal cost of around $5. Now, let's say both are put on sale at $10. At that price the PC game is still delivering a per-unit profit of $9, while the console game is only delivering a per-unit profit of $5- the decrease in price would have to result in twice as many sales for the console game vs the PC game for the sale price to have the same benefit. Basically, once the sale price starts getting close to the marginal cost you'll start seeing major effects on profits, regardless of the absolute value of the marginal costs. This most definitely has an impact on the optimal price point and the effectiveness of sales.

And this doesn't even take into account the merchant. Another big difference between games sold through physical retailers and games sold through digital distributors is that (as far as I know) retailers operate on a wholesale model, while digital distributors operate on something closer to an agency model. This means that retailers pay a certain cost upfront for the games, which they are then free to markup or discount as they please, but because of that upfront cost their own marginal cost for each game is pretty high, making large discounts even less worthwhile for them unless they're just trying to clear stock. On the other hand, when digital distributors operating through an agency model offer a discount the decrease in profit per unit is borne by both the publisher and the distributor, and as a result neither is dealing with a high marginal cost that limits the extent to which the game can be reasonably discounted.
I don't think the shipping costs were what reduced manual size and package size over the years but rather to reduce space in the retail store was my understanding for the switch to the current thin-box and DVD box system. Simply more merchandise could be fit onto store shelves as a way to have a larger (depth and breadth) inventory. More than the direct marginal costs of physical retail, space - the indirect marginal cost - seems to be the paramount concern for physical retailers and distributors.

I agree that the agency vs wholesale model does lead to significant differences in how discounts work. However, while it's true the retailer has its own marginal costs associated with quantity (stocking costs), again for large retailers, those are relatively small. Fixed costs do have *some* effect on optimal price point but don't have an effect on it relative to quantity sold - so that the more the game is sold the less the fixed costs matter. It is true, that in digital sales, marginal costs are reduced (I don't disagree), but there is still the bottom line of needing to make a profit and the marginal costs of the games are not as high as people are oft inclined to believe. :) The biggest issue I hear about is the difference in space - in retail space is paramount, so it's almost the case that the biggest marginal cost to a retailer isn't the usual thing but again a hidden, secondary cost - how much space is this item taking up and could it be replaced on the floor by something that sells better. And that's where clearance sales and bargain bins come in to play. They sell the left-over inventory for a partial loss (hoping perhaps for a loss-leader, but not banking on it), mostly because now there is the hidden cost of keeping an item out on the floor when it could be replaced by something that would sell better. So it would cost them more to keep it on the shelf than to sell at almost nothing.

Naturally a game does take up server space and the more game inventory one has, the larger servers one needs. However, those storage costs on a per-game basis are almost nothing for a digital retailer. While I agree that the agency model allows for a different structuring of the sales and I don't disagree about marginal costs being (somewhat) higher for retail, I would still argue that the lack of secondhand sales is an, if not the, important force in digital retail in regards to making the same kind of "clearance"-like sales necessary for digital retailers. I think you and I agree on the basic principles, but are disagreeing over degree. :)
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crazy_dave: I think you and I agree on the basic principles, but are disagreeing over degree. :)
Agreed, and at this point the degree over which we disagree comes down to the fine details of the actual costs involved, and without hard numbers to actually crunch the issue really can't be argued further. Thanks for the good discussion on this matter.
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crazy_dave: I think you and I agree on the basic principles, but are disagreeing over degree. :)
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DarrkPhoenix: Agreed, and at this point the degree over which we disagree comes down to the fine details of the actual costs involved, and without hard numbers to actually crunch the issue really can't be argued further. Thanks for the good discussion on this matter.
Agreed, you as well. :)
Post edited February 02, 2012 by crazy_dave
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DarrkPhoenix: Agreed, and at this point the degree over which we disagree comes down to the fine details of the actual costs involved, and without hard numbers to actually crunch the issue really can't be argued further. Thanks for the good discussion on this matter.
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crazy_dave: Agreed, you as well. :)
You two are making my head spin, egad! I'm going back to piracy ;-P