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AFnord: You can still buy alcohol in bars.. and pay 5-6€ for low grade beer/cider.
Holy mother of f....

For 6 euros I'd get 8 beers of very good quality. Wel, in bars, around 5.
Post edited April 26, 2012 by keeveek
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timppu: The real question is, why wasn't that man getting mental treatment already before his deed? I think this question will be asked over and over again in Finnish press in the coming weeks. A couple of years ago there was a very similar case here, I think even the motive was the same.
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Crispy78: I don't know about Finland, but in this country we don't get regular 'Are you mental?' checkups... If he's not gone to a doctor or councellor or talked to friends or family about his feelings, how is anyone meant to know he needs treatment?
Naturally, and I am sure the Finnish media will cover that too. In another case, the murderer had tried to get into some kind of mental treatment, but apparently was rejected god knows why. Maybe he was considered normal by Finnish standards, or something.
Post edited April 26, 2012 by timppu
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Fred_DM: a documentary is supposed to follow the scientific principles of objectivity and neutrality. Moore always has an agenda. the latter makes the former impossible. his films are political.
Very, very, very few documentaries really achieve the ideal - or can afford to achieve it. Sadly neutral and objective isn't considered good mass Television. Some documentaries on more specialised stations just manage better than others. A lot of documentaries on political subjects are political by nature.

[And oh - neutrality / objectivity is a difficult one. I don't think any of us - including self, (three first class degrees and very much in favour of scientific method) can really completely nullify our own perspectives. It's one of those ideals we can strife for, and get fairly close to, but just by being humans, limited by our senses and the way our brain filter's out a lot of information - we can't escape subjectivity completely. Good scientific work / documentaries take that into account of course - but a 100% objective account is impossible. Someone, some individual, always has to do the thinking. Their previous experiences (and learning) alone has a huge influence on that already.].

What I'd want from a good documentary is a solid rational argument that looks at an issue in depth and from various angles. Unlike with reporting on the natural sciences, when it comes to examining society a "no-bias" is, likely, even more impossible to achieve. I fall on the side of Phenomenology / Qualitative Science as the more meaningful approach when we examine our own society. Being objective requires us to stand outside the system we analyze. We really can't do that when examining our own (collective) behaviour.

And again - Moore's documentaries certainly aren't good documentaries. But they are part of the genre - and trying to push them out of that genre is a political argument in itself. Much as "My big fat gipsy wedding" is a really horrible thing by the standards of what documentaries should achieve. Or, analogous, as we are talking genres here, a fictional film that's really badly realised is still as much a movie as one of the "classics". An article in a yellow press paper is as much part of the definition of journalism as a rational well sourced investigative piece - no matter how much I dislike the former and prefer the latter. A badly done scientific work full of inconsistencies and irrational assumptions is still a scientific work by genre.
Post edited April 26, 2012 by Mnemon
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keeveek: I believe that Norwegian system wouldn't work in most places in the world.
It would work here, all told we're rich as fuck. We just allow the wealth to concentrate to an insane degree while Norway doesn't allow that. You look at a graph of countries by concentration of wealth and then look at graphs for how well off the citizens are, they always correlate health, happiness, longevity, etc. with the least wealth concentrated countries.

I.E. You're mixing up cause and effect, you're saying their near perfect society is because they have all these things and it's easy to be content in such circumstances, where it's more that they developed the system that allowed the wealth they did have to be shared, instead of hoarded. They weren't already fat and happy when they developed the "near perfect society".
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Elmofongo: what does that mean?
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JudasIscariot: I think Fred_DM means that a Michael Moore documentary isn't one at all because there is a lot of bias in his films. In a documentary you're supposed to just show things as they are without adding your own bias in the mix. Just my own 2 cents on this matter.
Well then, as someone who watches lots of documentaries, I'll just go ahead and say "bullshit". This might have been what they told you in school, but it's not even remotely true. Most documentary film makers are activists and trying to bring light onto what they believe is an important issue. I even met someone making a documentary on roller derby, I guarantee she was interested in promoting her sport (she played too) in a positive light.

There has never been any serious dose of impartial in the medium, the cases where it has happened are so exceedingly rare that you can safely categorize them as aberrations.
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Fred_DM: a documentary is supposed to follow the scientific principles of objectivity and neutrality. Moore always has an agenda. the latter makes the former impossible. his films are political.
Bullshit, see above.
Post edited April 26, 2012 by orcishgamer
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orcishgamer: Most documentary film makers are activists and trying to bring light onto what they believe is an important issue. I even met someone making a documentary on roller derby, I guarantee she was interested in promoting her sport (she played too) in a positive light.
Most documentary film makers do not rely on quoting people out-of-context.
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orcishgamer: Most documentary film makers are activists and trying to bring light onto what they believe is an important issue. I even met someone making a documentary on roller derby, I guarantee she was interested in promoting her sport (she played too) in a positive light.
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kalirion: Most documentary film makers do not rely on quoting people out-of-context.
Are you so sure? Count the times Moore has done it and compare it with others...

There is absolutely no objectivity in documentary. Even documentaries about wildlife strongly favor conservation and the environment.
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kalirion: Most documentary film makers do not rely on quoting people out-of-context.
Have you watched the History Channel of late?
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AFnord: There is no system in place to actually keep track of how much alcohol you buy. You need to show your ID to prove that you are 20 years old (or older), but the person across the counter just checks your age (if you look too young, if you look old enough, they won't ask for your ID).
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keeveek: Well, having to buy alcohol in govt. owned stores is shitty enough to not live there.

It's so hypocritical. "Oh, alcohol is sooo bad. So we will be the only ones to sell it and get all the profit from it".
There's an interesting story behind Swedens government controlled alcohol shops.

The Swedes was actually drinking so much for a time that the government had to step in and regulate our consumption because it was slowly killing too much of the population.
Yeah we have a culture of very heavy drinking here. :P

If I'm not mistaken I think Russia is slowly recognising the same problem.
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keeveek: Well, having to buy alcohol in govt. owned stores is shitty enough to not live there.

It's so hypocritical. "Oh, alcohol is sooo bad. So we will be the only ones to sell it and get all the profit from it".
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Tarm: There's an interesting story behind Swedens government controlled alcohol shops.

The Swedes was actually drinking so much for a time that the government had to step in and regulate our consumption because it was slowly killing too much of the population.
Yeah we have a culture of very heavy drinking here. :P

If I'm not mistaken I think Russia is slowly recognising the same problem.
Now, don't get me wrong, I love you guys and think you generally have a superior attitude to us. But you guys get a little whacky with the whole drug and alcohol thing. I do like that you don't just toss pot smokers in prison and throw away the key, but I tend to wonder why such an enlightened country cares about pot at all... I literally work with dozens of people on a daily basis that are both professionals and pot smokers. Between that kind of thing and the copious amounts of medical research data available shouldn't it be a non-issue for you guys by now?

Pot is not the only drug I think you folks over-react too, but it's the easiest to argue about due to the sheer amount of data available.
Post edited April 28, 2012 by orcishgamer
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Tarm: There's an interesting story behind Swedens government controlled alcohol shops.

The Swedes was actually drinking so much for a time that the government had to step in and regulate our consumption because it was slowly killing too much of the population.
Yeah we have a culture of very heavy drinking here. :P

If I'm not mistaken I think Russia is slowly recognising the same problem.
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orcishgamer: Now, don't get me wrong, I love you guys and think you generally have a superior attitude to us. But you guys get a little whacky with the whole drug and alcohol thing. I do like that you don't just toss pot smokers in prison and throw away the key, but I tend to wonder why such an enlightened country cares about pot at all... I literally work with dozens of people on a daily basis that are both professionals and pot smokers. Between that kind of thing and the copious amounts of medical research data available shouldn't it be a non-issue for you guys by now?

Pot is not the only drug I think you folks over-react too, but it's the easiest to argue about due to the sheer amount of data available.
I whole-heartily agree. Can't understand why pot and other "light" drugs aren't legal when a drug like alcohol that's way more dangerous and damaging is.

My thinking is that it's a cultural and moral thing. Alcohol have been consumed since like forever here so it's simply a part of life. No sane politician would try to make it illegal.

That other drugs is illegal is probably due to our Christian moral code that permeates our whole society. People tend to forget that many of our laws and cultural traits are heavily based on Christian Protestant beliefs. At least here in Sweden.
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Tarm: There's an interesting story behind Swedens government controlled alcohol shops.

The Swedes was actually drinking so much for a time that the government had to step in and regulate our consumption because it was slowly killing too much of the population.
Yeah we have a culture of very heavy drinking here. :P

If I'm not mistaken I think Russia is slowly recognising the same problem.
You can't drink too much. Ask Polish, Ukrainians and Russians.
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Tarm: There's an interesting story behind Swedens government controlled alcohol shops.

The Swedes was actually drinking so much for a time that the government had to step in and regulate our consumption because it was slowly killing too much of the population.
Yeah we have a culture of very heavy drinking here. :P

If I'm not mistaken I think Russia is slowly recognising the same problem.
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keeveek: You can't drink too much. Ask Polish, Ukrainians and Russians.
I know. They are insane vodka drinkers. I've worked with people from those countries and when they drink they DRINK. No wonder alcohol is a big health problem there.
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AFnord: You can still buy alcohol in bars.. and pay 5-6€ for low grade beer/cider.
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keeveek: Holy mother of f....

For 6 euros I'd get 8 beers of very good quality. Wel, in bars, around 5.
I hope that beer comes with a BJ for that price.

Damn Sweden, you is expensive!
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keeveek: You can't drink too much. Ask Polish, Ukrainians and Russians.
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Tarm: I know. They are insane vodka drinkers. I've worked with people from those countries and when they drink they DRINK. No wonder alcohol is a big health problem there.
I am Polish but I can't stand too much vodka so I don't know where you get those Poles from unless they are from the countryside of Poland...
Post edited April 28, 2012 by JudasIscariot
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keeveek: Holy mother of f....

For 6 euros I'd get 8 beers of very good quality. Wel, in bars, around 5.
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JudasIscariot: I hope that beer comes with a BJ for that price.

Damn Sweden, you is expensive!
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Tarm: I know. They are insane vodka drinkers. I've worked with people from those countries and when they drink they DRINK. No wonder alcohol is a big health problem there.
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JudasIscariot: I am Polish but I can't stand too much vodka so I don't know where you get those Poles from unless they are from the countryside of Poland...
A lot of Poles work in Sweden. Don't know from where in Poland they've been from that I've met though.
Most Poles I've met have been very heavy vodka drinkers (When they party.) or don't touch alcohol at all. The "dry" ones have been that because a incident or more involving vodka that made them give up drinking.
Maybe it's just a special kind of Poles that tend to work here in Sweden. :P
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Fred_DM: a documentary is supposed to follow the scientific principles of objectivity and neutrality.
You appear to be thinking of journalism. There are no such standards for documentarians. Nanook of the North is widely considered the first documentary feature film and it is just as staged as Borat. Sorry to burst your bubble.
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Elmofongo: If that happens and Puerto Rico will be a 52nd state than the old Puerto Rican people who demanded independence will be sad and angry
I missed something. What is the 51st state?
Post edited April 28, 2012 by Darling_Jimmy