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General discussion (archive)Is Steam DRM?(329 posts)(329 posts)
(329 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted September 23, 2010
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fisk0: once you've got the game downloaded you can do whatever you want with it
Umm, I don't think you can actually legally make copies and play it if Steam shuts down. You don't purchase that right from Valve when you use Steam.

That you physically can do it, doesn't mean you can do it legally. Not that they will come for you with the black helicopters, but you would probably be pirating the game if you did such a thing. With Steam you aren't actually buying the game, you are buying limited access to their service.

(note I'm not a lawyer and it would really be a judge that would decide what the words of the Steam license really mean anyway, but I'm pretty sure the intent of the Steam license is to make sure you know you are renting a service and not buying a game).

Note: I directly asked Gamers Gate about doing this type of thing and they basically said that it was a fine line and they probably wouldn't bug you if you did it. They did not just say it was ok to do it though which was the answer I was looking for.

So you really should be asking Steam directly if it is ok to so this before you ask people to do something that might be pirating. Just because the file is on your computer, doesn't mean you have the rights to copy it (which is horribly wrong, but it is the way the world is right now).

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fisk0: The people behind Steam have on multiple occasions said that Steam wouldn't just suddenly seize to exist, they say the would give advance warning and unlock the games that require steam authentication to run.
I've yet to find more than one oblique reference to this and that reference has already been removed. Do you actually know where Steam has said this or do you just know that people say this?

In any case both GOG and Steam are obviously DRM since your rights are being managed on digital goods. GOG only limits resale as far as I know.
Posted September 23, 2010
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jimthev: In any case both GOG and Steam are obviously DRM since your rights are being managed on digital goods. GOG only limits resale as far as I know.
You're confusing DRM with Digital Distribution system, which both Steam and GOG.com are. However, only Steam has DRM built in - once you've bought a game from GOG.com you can install it as many times as you wish on as many PCs as you wish, regardless of whether or not these PCs have an internat connection - there are no restrictions at all. Also, you can play the game on each and every single one of these PCs simultaneously - like make a LAN party to play some Good Old Games with your friends - and nothing would prevent you from doing so. You cannot do such a thing with Steam, since it would only allow to run the game on one machine at a time.
Posted September 23, 2010
Slightly off topic.

I think I am perhaps biased towards digital distribution due to having experienced several cases where keeping them turned out to be futile.

I think it's important to remember that games are not movies and they are not music. Movies and music are like paintings and books in that all you need to do is store them well and they last a long time, so I think the case for staying with physical copies is stronger there.

However, like I mentioned games are not like that as they're more complex and have more stuff to break. Games are more like machines, machines that need to be cared for and need human attention. Without someone to make patches, fix incompatibilities with newer systems, or make virtual machines like DosBox and VMware, they won't last. It won't matter how durable your disks are or how well you store them, they're more vulnerable to becoming unusable for reasons not related to how well they are stored. Sure, the same holds true to some extent for other art stored electronically, but I think for applies much more so for games.

Digital distribution like GoG or even Steam provide an incentive to maintain these games that wouldn't be there otherwise. Sure GoG or Steam can fail and disappear, but I think it having them around does help with this, even if only a little.
Posted September 23, 2010
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jimthev: In any case both GOG and Steam are obviously DRM since your rights are being managed on digital goods. GOG only limits resale as far as I know.
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Rathori: You're confusing DRM with Digital Distribution system, which both Steam and GOG.com are. However, only Steam has DRM built in - once you've bought a game from GOG.com you can install it as many times as you wish on as many PCs as you wish, regardless of whether or not these PCs have an internat connection - there are no restrictions at all. Also, you can play the game on each and every single one of these PCs simultaneously - like make a LAN party to play some Good Old Games with your friends - and nothing would prevent you from doing so. You cannot do such a thing with Steam, since it would only allow to run the game on one machine at a time.
You still lack the right to resell with gog, it's not harsh DRM, but it is definitely DRM.
Posted September 23, 2010
Great, GOG went down for server maintenance the moment I posted my reply, and of course I didn't think of making a backup before posting. :)

Anyway, OK, I noticed more of the old games than I thought required Steam to run, one of the strangest examples was Deus Ex, which did not use any DRM at all when it was released, not even a CD checker (makes me wonder if Unreal and Unreal Tournament 1999 does the same thing).
VVVVVV is a recent indie title available on Steam without any DRM, and Quake, Quake II and Hexen II also don't require Steam (Quake 3 and Return to Castle Wolfenstein does though).
And these are some Dosbox games that don't use Steam: X-COM: UFO Defense, X-COM: Terror from the Deep, X-COM: Apocalypse, The Ultimate Doom, Doom 2 + The Master Levels for Doom II & Final Doom, the Commander Keen series, Hexen + Deathkings of the dark citadel, Heretic + Shadow of the serpen riders, Wolfenstein 3D + Spear of Destiny.
Posted September 23, 2010
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Orryyrro: You still lack the right to resell with gog, it's not harsh DRM, but it is definitely DRM.
That's not DRM. DRM is technology that enforces restrictions. We don't say that (standard CDDA) CDs or hardcopy books have DRM, but you're still legally culpable if you make copies and sell them without first obtaining the appropriate permissions.

On the other hand, we would say a CD with a Sony rootkit has DRM. It makes your computer less useful by preventing it from doing something it would normally be able to do. GOG software doesn't do that.
Posted September 23, 2010
The fact is: Valve made a very good job in persuading people that Steam is a "digital games platform" instead of a simple DRM mechanism that locks all the fucking games you purchase/download.
The fact is: Steam is the worst DRM ever, imho.
Post edited September 23, 2010 by KingofGnG
Posted September 23, 2010
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Weclock: Thanks for sharing this.
Yes, Steam is DRM.
Arguing that GOG is DRM because you lose access to your installers is stupid.
That's like saying CD's are DRM.
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Orryyrro: You can resell CD's, you can't resell an individual game from gog.
Technically, you can. Just not legally.
Posted September 23, 2010
DRM stands for digital rights management... it means they manage the game after you obtain it. GOG does nothing with the games after you download them, they are complete, never phone home and you can do whatever you like with them whenever you like. Steam games are managed after purchase through the Steam client by Valve and their partners. They have control over the games, your access to them and their content.

That's the difference.
Posted September 23, 2010
Some people just can't think straight. There is absolutely no question that Steam is a DRM platform for games and that GOG is not. People may like Steam and dislike GOG, or vice versa etc, but that doesn't change the facts.

DRM - Digital Rights ( / Restrictions) Management
DRM has some similarities with 'copy protection', but they are not the same. Some differences are:
-- DRM only applies to digital artifacts, whereas copy protection applies to analogue artifacts too. A company called Macrovision created copy protection schemes to copy protect VHS cassettes.
-- DRM can be concerned with digital copy protection (ie making copies of a piece of media), but also access control (eg limiting how many users can access the digital content at the same time - Steam's limit is 1 user).

It's also worth noting that a serial key for a game, does not constitute as a DRM mechanism by itself. If you have the key and you have the game, you can have as much access to the game and make as many copies as you like. You could share the key and the game with every person in your sovereign country, and there is no digital mechanism of the serial key alone that could stop you. A serial key can however serve a function as a part of a DRM system. One example is: if the developer was to implement code that checked in with central server to make sure that / that key wasn't already in use on another computer, then you would be looking at a DRM system.

My advice for people who encounter morons like that guy Static, is to simply ignore them. If they are trying to argue that black is white, then you can't win.

If people want to discuss which are their favorite game providers, or which forms of DRM bother them and which don't, that's all fair discussion, all open to debate, and much of it is simply personal preference.
Post edited September 23, 2010 by komoto
Posted September 23, 2010
THREE reasons why Steam IS a form of DRM:

1. Steamworks-required games or Steam versions of games REQUIRE online activation through Steam's servers w/ your very own Steam account, before you can even get started w/ playing it. Retail Discs are NOT the DRM-check here, your Steam account and the Steamworks DRM itself IS the DRM.

2. All retail disc based games that require Steam OR Steam versions of games bought directly-to-download through Steam must be run w/ the Steam program installed and running - whether running in Steam's offline or online mode. It doesn't matter.
(SIDE NOTE: Impulse and GOG don't require any program to be running to run their games.)

3. Some games on Steam ALSO have ADDITIONAL 3rd party DRM measures - i.e. Securom, Tages, G4WL built-in DRM, or any other online activation w/ possibly Install-limits included style DRM).

Yeah, Steam's DEFINITELY DRM. It's just usually not as vicious as most stuff these days, unless it's coupled w/ additional 3rd party DRM (see #3).
Post edited September 23, 2010 by MysterD
Posted September 23, 2010
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Rathori: like make a LAN party to play some Good Old Games with your friends - and nothing would prevent you from doing so.
Are you sure? I was under the assumption that I couldn't legally give away copies of games I bought on GOG. This is what you are doing in your scenario. Again, the difference being what you can physically do vs. what you have agreed to limit yourself to do by agreeing to a license when you buy something. In fact, for some Steam games (generally old ones) you can just copy off the game and run it wherever you feel like running it.

I think you are prevented from having your one copy LAN party by the agreement you 'signed' when you purchased the item. Now that might or might not be enough prevention to actually stop you personally, but I feel it does exist.

In my head, I'm including the entire process including the license you agree to as defining what is Steam and what is GOG for comparison of if they are DRM or not. The client is part of the process but not the entire process (again, in my head). Different definitions of DRM get different results, but there is mine (even if it isn't the exact letter of the law).

If you define DRM as pure technology to limit access to run the game (ie the 'true' definition'), then GOG doesn't have it and some Steam games have it others don't because the DRM wouldn't be the download client, it would be the access checking upon instancing the game. But at that point, it would be harder for the average joe to separate the download client part of Steam from the instancing part even though they are very different in functionality. Indeed it is irrelevant that the Steam client downloads vs Chrome downloading since both are doing the exact same thing in exactly the same way. But that concept isn't immediately obvious and generally pointless to pursue.

Define DRM as pure technology used to limit your access to get the game and both Steam and GOG are DRM since you have to log in to download.

Given that there are various usages of what DRM means going on in this thread, you'll always be both right and wrong no matter what you say.

ymmv
Posted September 23, 2010
While Steam is definitely DRM, I would rate it fairly low in the list of Bad DRMs. I realise that there are some major disadvantages (client, unreliable offline mode, server contact), but there are some notable benefits (Community, ease of reinstall, stupidly easy re-downloads, any DOSbox game can be fairly easily liberated by copying and pasting) which is more than can be said than, say, UbiDRM or certain flavours of SecuROM.

@jimthev: Legally, no, you shouldn't do it. Doesn't stop people handing round discs and/or cracks during LAN events anyway. Same principals: it's illegal, but there's nothing physically stopping you.
Post edited September 23, 2010 by DelusionsBeta
Posted September 23, 2010
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jimthev: Are you sure? I was under the assumption that I couldn't legally give away copies of games I bought on GOG. This is what you are doing in your scenario. Again, the difference being what you can physically do vs. what you have agreed to limit yourself to do by agreeing to a license when you buy something. In fact, for some Steam games (generally old ones) you can just copy off the game and run it wherever you feel like running it.
The presence or absence of a legal license does not change whether or not a given digital artifact has DRM wrapped around it or not. For instance: Amazon have taken Public Domain books and sold them for their Kindle wrapped in DRM.

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jimthev: I think you are prevented from having your one copy LAN party by the agreement you 'signed' when you purchased the item. Now that might or might not be enough prevention to actually stop you personally, but I feel it does exist.
As above... it's still not DRM.

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jimthev: In my head, I'm including the entire process including the license you agree to as defining what is Steam and what is GOG for comparison of if they are DRM or not. The client is part of the process but not the entire process (again, in my head). Different definitions of DRM get different results, but there is mine (even if it isn't the exact letter of the law).
Once again... law doesn't change whether something has DRM around it or not. Regarding how you define DRM in your head: you can make up whatever you want. Infact I have now decided that DRM refers only to Damn Raging Minotaurs, and anything which isn't a Damn Raging Minotaurs, is not DRM. Steam and GOG are both not Damn Raging Minotaurs, therefore they are not DRM.

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jimthev: If you define DRM as pure technology to limit access to run the game (ie the 'true' definition'), then GOG doesn't have it
Correct.

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jimthev: ...and some Steam games have it others don't because the DRM wouldn't be the download client, it would be the access checking upon instancing the game. But at that point, it would be harder for the average joe to separate the download client part of Steam from the instancing part even though they are very different in functionality. Indeed it is irrelevant that the Steam client downloads vs Chrome downloading since both are doing the exact same thing in exactly the same way. But that concept isn't immediately obvious and generally pointless to pursue.
If you circumvent the DRM through use of cracks, fixes or instructions etc, that doesn't change the fact that the media came wrapped in DRM.

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jimthev: Define DRM as pure technology used to limit your access to get the game and both Steam and GOG are DRM since you have to log in to download.
Not True. You have to log in to purchase and download the game, but there is no DRM there. You simply haven't been given a copy. If I take a photo using my camera and I choose not to make it available to you, there is no DRM involved - I simply haven't given you a copy. If I charge you for a copy, once again there is no DRM - I'm just holding it ransom.

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jimthev: Given that there are various usages of what DRM means going on in this thread, you'll always be both right and wrong no matter what you say.
ymmv
I think there is some room for debating some small aspects of what DRM is, but some of the people commenting in this thread clearly haven't got their head around the well-established basics.
Posted September 23, 2010
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SilentChe: I had a similar discussion on 2K Games forum when they released Civilization V (all versions are bound to Steam, even the DVD-version...). I thought my points came out clear, but fans of Steam does not seem to see the bad side to it.
It's interesting you should mention this because it was this that started that conversation. Notch, the developer of Minecraft bought a retail copy of Civ5 and couldn't play it because Steam told him it wasn't out yet.

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nondeplumage: I'm torn. On the one hand, I try to be a kind and caring soul, who realizes that some people are a little different in their ability to reason.
On the other, I wage a constant internal war against the need to let the rage monkey out, and I want the rage monkey to win.
Your friend wants the rage monkey, don't he? It's written in stupid, right there.
Pretty much the dilemma I faced. He's a cool guy usually...
Post edited September 23, 2010 by eyeball226
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)Is Steam DRM?(329 posts)(329 posts)
(329 posts)