So, I had an interesting argument today. This guy was trying to argue that Steam wasn't DRM (which it undeniably is, whether you think that's good or bad). He was trying to say that if Steam was DRM, then so was GOG (no, it's a DD site). Anyway, even if you don't read the ridiculously long conversation, I'd like to hear your opinions of whether Steam counts as DRM or not. My argument, summarised from the below conversation is that Steam is DRM because if the service went down permanently, I wouldn't be allowed to install my games on my new computer.
Unfortunately, I can't spoiler tag the conversation or do anything else to make it smaller. The PPoC is the Pirate Party of Canada by the way.
eyeball226 says (19:23):
I find it odd that you're a member of the PPoC but aren't really bothered by DRM

Static says (19:23):
Because the way Steam does DRM is the only right way.

eyeball226 says (19:24):
How is it right?

Static says (19:24):
As in
You can download as much as you want

eyeball226 says (19:24):
What's that got to do with anything?

Static says (19:24):
On as many computers as you want.

eyeball226 says (19:25):
And?

Static says (19:25):
And that's fair.

eyeball226 says (19:25):
evidently your problem with DRM is different from mine

Static says (19:25):
What's your problem with it?

eyeball226 says (19:25):
I don't like the fact that it requires external authorisation for you to play the games.
You need to ask permission

Static says (19:26):
That's not how Steam works.

eyeball226 says (19:27):
So if they shut down their servers forever tomorrow could you carry on playing your games indefinitely? And migrate them to newer computers when you upgrade?

Static says (19:28):
No.
But that's not the same as asking permission/ external authorization.
Like GOG demonstrated
The same thing can happen if they shut down.

eyeball226 says (19:28):
How so?

Static says (19:28):
You can keep playing them
But if you ever need to redownload them

Static says (19:29):
You're SOL.

eyeball226 says (19:29):
I'm not talking about redownloading though
I have all my gog installers

Static says (19:29):
I didn't

eyeball226 says (19:29):
I could install them on my new PC fine

Static says (19:29):
You could.

eyeball226 says (19:29):
As far as I know you wouldn't be able to do that were steam to shut down.

Static says (19:29):
not everyone could.

Static says (19:30):
Steam has never gone down

eyeball226 says (19:30):
It's more that the possibility exists

Static says (19:30):
all you've done so far is speculate what would happen.

eyeball226 says (19:30):
that is what would happen

Static says (19:30):
Not true.

Static says (19:31):
If Steam went down (unlikely) they could just as easily put systems into place to "unlock" your games.

eyeball226 says (19:31):
who would do that though?
If Valve went out of business

Static says (19:32):
If Valve started doing poorly, that is something they'd definately look at.

eyeball226 says (19:32):
Ah, I forgot you were in charge of Steam
How silly of me

Static says (19:32):
And you are?
Speculation as to what would happen if Steam shutdown is stupid and pointless.

Static says (19:33):
And the fact of the matter is, for a while I had no access to my games that I got from GOG.

eyeball226 says (19:33):
That was partially your fault though
You're encouraged to back them up

Static says (19:34):
Not even remotely.

eyeball226 says (19:34):
and there's no guarantee the downloads would be up forever

Static says (19:34):
What about the people that bought games the day before

eyeball226 says (19:34):
same with Steam

Static says (19:34):
And had NO chance to download them the next day?

eyeball226 says (19:34):
That is different, I sympathise with them
Have you read the TOS of either site?

Static says (19:35):
Nope.
>Have a life.

eyeball226 says (19:35):
Oh come on, you're losing the argument so you insult me?

Static says (19:35):
Ha.
>Implying that I'm losing.

Static says (19:36):
Furthermore, I didn't insult you in any way.
>Not ad hominem.

eyeball226 says (19:36):
Well, reading isn't difficult or that time consuming.

Static says (19:36):
I just haven't bothered.

Static says (19:37):
But still, the fact remains.
I had no access to my games when GOG went down.
Just like Steam users wouldn't.

eyeball226 says (19:37):
You had no access to your games because you hadn't installed them

Static says (19:37):
And if anything were to happen to you harddrives (which is very likely, I've had one fail not too long ago and lose all my data) then you're SOL too.

eyeball226 says (19:37):
or backed them up

Static says (19:38):
Files get corrupted in back ups all the time.

eyeball226 says (19:38):
If anything happened to my hard drive? You mean like my CD with the game on breaking?
How is that any different?
It's my responsibility to look after my install files.

Static says (19:38):
And it's GOG's to make sure that you have access to them at all times.

eyeball226 says (19:39):
No it's not. Read the TOS.

eyeball226 says (19:40):
Both GOG and Steam reserve the right to close the service at any time without prior notice.

Static says (19:41):
huh, found something of interest in here.
GOG can delete your account at any-
Yeah, that's something you were ragging on Steam earlier for.
So basically, if either Steam or GOG go down you're SOL.
It's the same goddamn thing.
DVD's break, hard drives fail and back-ups get corrupted.
GOG is as much DRM as Steam is.

eyeball226 says (19:42):
Wah?
How is GOG DRM at all?

Static says (19:42):
In the same way you argued Steam is.

eyeball226 says (19:43):
I was aware of them being able to delete my account at any time.

Static says (19:43):
I still have to login to get my files, and if anything were to happen to the server I'd be SOL.
Because
DVD's get scratched/ broken.

eyeball226 says (19:43):
Yes

Static says (19:43):
Back ups get corrupted

eyeball226 says (19:43):
Yes

Static says (19:43):
Hard drives fail.

eyeball226 says (19:43):
Yes
And what have they got to do with GOG?

eyeball226 says (19:44):
They didn't cause those to happen.
Steam going down and stopping you playing your games WOULD be their fault.

Static says (19:44):
AS IT IS WITH GOG.

eyeball226 says (19:44):
GOG did go down, I played my games. Deal with it.

Static says (19:44):
GOG went down.
I couldn't.
Deal with it.

Static says (19:45):
Just because you had your games on-hand.
Doesn't mean everyone did.

eyeball226 says (19:45):
Because they weren't on your computer. HURRRR
And as I said before, read the TOS

Static says (19:45):
Their TOS reads the same/similar to Steam's

eyeball226 says (19:45):
Exactly!

Static says (19:45):
THANK YOU.

eyeball226 says (19:45):
The sole difference is the lack of DRM

Static says (19:45):
Steam is not DRM
>Admitting Steam
>Admitting Steam

Static says (19:46):
Steam is not DRM
STEAM IS NOT DRM.
Let me say that again.
Steam.
Is
No
t
DRM
GOG is not DRM.

eyeball226 says (19:46):
So, if their servers went down, how do I install Portal on my new computer?

Static says (19:47):
You can't unless it's already installed.

eyeball226 says (19:47):
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Static says (19:47):
I've played Steam offline before.
SAME AS GOG.

eyeball226 says (19:47):
Yes, you've played it offline
still using their client

Static says (19:47):
As have many people.

eyeball226 says (19:47):
so have I

eyeball226 says (19:48):
You still have to play through their client (irritating, but it doesn't bother me that much)

Static says (19:48):
I gotta go, work and all that.

eyeball226 says (19:48):
AND I CAN'T INSTALL THOSE GAMES ON MY NEW COMPUTER
Right
Bye then


He was practically foaming at the mouth there at one point...

I don't know that "interesting" would be my choice of adjective. "Depressing" would be my choice.

Haha, perhaps. I can't believe anyone read it all! Anyway, I was hoping for some debate but I'm guessing there aren't that many Steam fans here? Haha, yes... The definition of DRM is pretty clear. If it places any restrictions on how you run the software then it's DRM.

i'm too lazy to read the whole conversation, so: When I take my backed up Steam games where I do not have teh interwebz, can I install it? Nah. Therefore, yes, it's DRM. You can tell your friend we have all agreed.

You do know the numerous saying about arguing on the internet, right?
When someone is so obtuse as your guy there, there isn't really hope to have a reasonable conversation...

I had a similar discussion on 2K Games forum when they released Civilization V (all versions are bound to Steam, even the DVD-version...). I thought my points came out clear, but fans of Steam does not seem to see the bad side to it.

I understand that it is very unlikely that Steam would go offline, or that they wouldn't give you some sort of solution should they go offline. However, the fact that you playing a game is on their mercy is not a good thing in my eyes. It is also possible for them to ban you from their service, which would make you loose access to all the games you have bought there.

In my eyes, Steam is DRM.
I understand that people can love and enjoy Steam, but it's simply not for me.

My first experience with Steam was when I bought a boxed copy of Half-Life 2 used. It turns out Valve doesn't like it when you do that. Steam wouldn't let me play it unless I paid some sort of re-activation fee that was basically as much as the game cost new. Since the game wouldn't work on my computer unless they decided to let it, it's pretty clear Steam is DRM. There was nothing on the package to indicate that the game wouldn't work if resold. Needless to say, I haven't been a big fan of Steam since.

You might object that GOG doesn't want people reselling games they purchase from them either, and they say as much in the licensing agreement. But that's "only" a legal restriction. The game would still work; you'd just be in contravention of the agreement. But be nice and don't do it anyway, OK? :)

Not quite, you can only sell copies, not the original, since the original is on gog's server. And it is bound to the account fully, you just don't have any technologically imposed DRM that limits use.

Well... really, what's to debate?

Steam can directly control whatever content has been installed using it, and whatever content is being managed by it. Your ability to play a game that has already been installed on your computer can be rescinded. In other words, the rights of your digital stuff are being managed. And not by you. GOG does not do this.

Yes, I believe even more "depressing" is the correct term, since this doesn't exactly take a significat network of neurons to comprehend.

There are plenty of STEAM fans here but unlike the STEAM forums most people here do realize that STEAM is DRM.

tl;dr

GOG is DRM too, in a way. You make a digital account with which you purchase licenses / rights to have access to a particular game.

On the other hand, Steam has COPY PROTECTION, GOG doesn't. ;)

Steam is a DRM platform in that you need to run their client to play a game there.
But then, even Gog requires you to have purchased a game (account to download),
This is inherent in all DD platforms, and is reasonable - don't want the public getting access to something they haven't paid for.

Where Steam and others fail is not only do you have to deal with that basic level of DRM, you also *can* have an additional 2 or 3 levels of DRM on top -
*CONSTANT online presence - not so much an ordeal for broadband users, as is for Dial-up (and yes, even the UK still has many areas with no broadband!);
*3rd-party clients such as GFWL/Ubi-Fail account/server access;
*SECURom; TAGES, etc etc etc etc etc additional DRM schemes.

With gog, there's no worries.

I'm torn. On the one hand, I try to be a kind and caring soul, who realizes that some people are a little different in their ability to reason.

On the other, I wage a constant internal war against the need to let the rage monkey out, and I want the rage monkey to win.

Your friend wants the rage monkey, don't he? It's written in stupid, right there.