Dischord: Ma'am/Sir, my only point is that they are not saints, at least within the parameters of what the OP stated; no-one could be.

Should you wish to canonize, that is your prerogative, but do not assume that the process will go smoothly. :-)

McDon: Well technically he abolished slavery for at least half of the world or the British Empire ;)

teshra: Sir...I very much insist you go thru my posts in this thread and point out where I said Abraham Lincoln is a saint or demanded he be canonized.

Similarly, to the other guy, I said I didn't know much about the rest of Schindlers life but one thing he did in that life could be regarded as saintly. That guy jumped all over the fact that he was a Nazi which is neither here nor there from the truly throwaway statement I originally made that his protection of the Jews for whatever monetary or selfish reason as it were, was still a fantastic thing to do in that day.

Similarly, Lincoln deciding as President of the United States, that slavery needed to be abolished was a good thing. You took that one statement and turned it into a "tactical advantage". Again, neither here nor there from what I said. I was speaking of the human aspect of it and you turned it into military reasoning. Misunderstanding? Fine.

But again, just point to me where I said Abe is a saint? Please. My intial post if you read it again was regarding the fact no person can ever be a saint but certain things they have done in their life can be considered saintly. My second post was because someone was upset/jealous/sad that his European ancestor doesn't get the accolades for slavery that Lincoln does. I said thats not Lincolns fault and his choice to attempt to do the same in his country should not be discounted. And then, que the tactical advantage dilemna. How one led to the other, I'll never know. So be it.

Goodnight.

tinyE: Not sure if responding to my post, or another.

Hello, regardless, but if response/statement directed to me, will be glad to respond.

Nice to meet you, btw.
I didn't jump on it, I just mentioned it in passing. Maybe you should go back and read my post.

Dischord: I'm not so sure it was him, but perhaps an awakening of man.

Many things were going on in the world, in the power centers of the day. France, England, Austria, Germany, Russia, all were changing, as many more, and the US was a very small player.

Every nation, and perhaps, all of our ancestors were slaves at one time or another, and no question that it was best abolished.

My perception, right or wrong, is that it was not attributable to any one man, but man himself.

Edit for transposition of word.

McDon: Though he wasn't the only one of course he overshadowed others himself, he still was fairly important in abolishing slavery in the British Empire.
If you're talking about half of the world thing, I forget the exact figures but the British Empire had a good portion of the world's population at the time, mainly due to India, which is second or third in population to China? Plus I think U.S had a tiny population compared to size of the country at the time.

tinyE: I'm totally confused. Who is quoting who? :D

My "read my post" post was aimed teshra but as soon as I sent it I realized he is the same guy that came after me last night for my forum conduct. The difference is last night he had a good point and I told him I would stop the annoying thing he pointed out that I was doing, and I have. This is a little different.

On a side note, how many more New Orleans Saints do I have to post before someone acknowledges the joke and/or tells me to shut the hell up? :P

Tom Dempsey

Dischord: US was insignificant at the time, but I think it was more of an awakening within man, himself.

Here it was an issue, but other things drove our civil war too. If it had that effect elsewhere, that is good, but I can't know as I can only read to try and figure out, and the best texts seem to be the oldest texts.

I think Time magazine used to have a man of the year thing, and from my perspective, the most influential man of the 20th century was Goebbels (I didn't think this, just agree.)
Dischord: Sorry friend, when these things happen, you feel better when you have had a few, but have seen you have not.

Just blame it on those who have, smile, and be glad you aren't one of them :-)

tinyE: I'm fine, nothing but smiles here. If I'd know it was going to cause a dust up I'd have kept the Schindler comment to myself. Either way, regardless of what I may post, I hold fast to what Oscar Wilde said, "Life is far too imprtant to be taken seriously." Oh and if by "a few" you mean drinks I'd love to but I'm not throwing away 7 years on the wagon for a silly tiff like this. Besides...the Blues are on...and they are winning!

McDon: Lincoln is overrated, he only brought up an issue that was already dealt with over in Europe. If there was never any American Civil War I doubt we'd ever have heard of him.

bevinator: "I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality."
-Abraham Lincoln, Lincoln-Douglas Debates, 1858

Lincoln was a very complex and important character for sure. But a saint he was not, and most Americans don't even really understand the fundamentals of what he believed, or even the ramifications or intentions of his greatest accomplishments. It is unfortunate.

bevinator: "I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality."
-Abraham Lincoln, Lincoln-Douglas Debates, 1858

Lincoln was a very complex and important character for sure. But a saint he was not, and most Americans don't even really understand the fundamentals of what he believed, or even the ramifications or intentions of his greatest accomplishments. It is unfortunate.