Posted May 02, 2010
![Orryyrro](https://images.gog.com/4ffea882457f13f28aaa4d97c9b5ac68180dcb4a80032c93824531601dea50d8_forum_avatar.jpg)
Orryyrro
Flying Squirrel!
Registered: Mar 2010
From Canada
![Namur](https://images.gog.com/301343b16e0efa69f2fbeb70703c53940f92981fb47a6fd8300f9823b4f421c0_forum_avatar.jpg)
Namur
Malkavian
Registered: Oct 2008
From Portugal
Posted May 02, 2010
![avatar](/upload/avatars/2008/09/1221231343556_t2.jpg)
Oh my, i forgot what a level headed and fair guy you are and to which lenghts you're prepared to go to see other people's POV's *cough*
Off course that a great number of people around here who are vocal on the issue and who strongly oppose DRM, including myself, repeatedly stating all throughout the boards that some DRM models such as Impulse or one time online activations are perfectly acceptable and more or less ok given the current state of affairs isn't doing just that ? Off course not, i mean, how could you keep up with the 'militant' schtick if it was...
It seems to me that that's exactly what compromising means, the difference is in order to compromise people don't have to go out of their way to define or consider things based on egocentric approaches such as 'If it incoviniences me, etc, etc'.
I can't say for sure how others feel, but aside from those that have stricter self imposed rules, and even those aren't 'militants' btw, they just consider morals and principles only instead of incovinience and practicalities only or instead of a mix of the two (which is pretty much where i stand), and they're perfectly within their right to do so, i'm willing to bet the main problem people have with Impulse right now is their regional issues, issues that i honestly hope Impulse and all other platforms manage to sort out in the near future. Bottomline, what keeps me away from Impulse right now are regional issues, not DRM related issues inherent to the platform itself, although 3rd party DRM is still a great concern, but that goes for basically every platform out there, except gog, obviously.
We don't have DRM on everything, we don't have it on gog. You're stubborn and you're used to win arguments by attrition, and move along your agenda of trying to completely remove all meaning from the word/expression DRM. Well, you'll have a tough time doing it on stubborness alone, namely through your repeated attempts to drag gog into the mix. I can be pretty stubborn myself when i put my mind to it.
gog in itself as a platform is 100% DRM free, gog's catalogue is 100% DRM free.
So, once more, 1,2,3, all togheter now: THIS HERE SERVICE IS 100% DRM FREE! :p
"At least is the Steam model" Well, I really don't want to get into it, but i'll tell you this. You keep talking about steam as if steam is something everybody should be willing to accept or even wish for as the standart for DD. It's not. In my eyes the subscription model makes steam the most questionable platform out there in terms of DRM, and frankly, to an extent i wonder if it wasn't for the widespread acceptance of steam if models such as UBI DRM would ever even have seen the light of day.
Steam isn't evil and steam isn't to blame for UBI's new scheme. To be perfectly clear, that's not what i'm saying at all, ok? Steam is just another DD platform and it's up to each of us to make our own minds about it.
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DarrkPhoenix
A1 Antagonist
Registered: Nov 2008
From United States
Posted May 02, 2010
![avatar](/upload/avatars/2008/09/1221231343556_t2.jpg)
How do you discuss the concepts and problems behind something you can't define?
Can't define? Most any word is easily defined (even if full definitions can be a bit lengthy), and DRM is no different. The only issue is that definitions tend to vary a bit from person to person. There will typically be some core aspects to the definition shared by just about everyone, but when it comes to edge cases the definitions can end up diverging quite a bit. However, none of this presents any kind of insurmountable barrier to discussing the issues. All that's required is that people make an honest effort to understand what definitions other people are using for a given term, in order to understand the concepts that people are trying to communicate. Of course, the main problem is that many folks actually have no interest in understanding what others are trying to say, and as a result we get the kind of pointless quibbling that's been going on in this thread.
![Gundato](https://images.gog.com/864386935c14b88e4356ed6a797c06cc38c993067a5da8d9663bba985240956f_forum_avatar.jpg)
Gundato
The Peepe
Registered: Sep 2008
From United States
![DarrkPhoenix](https://images.gog.com/df1be28147fdef315e936a88501e482749a073c91ac950fd02da6a77474fa202_forum_avatar.jpg)
DarrkPhoenix
A1 Antagonist
Registered: Nov 2008
From United States
![Namur](https://images.gog.com/301343b16e0efa69f2fbeb70703c53940f92981fb47a6fd8300f9823b4f421c0_forum_avatar.jpg)
Namur
Malkavian
Registered: Oct 2008
From Portugal
Posted May 03, 2010
I'll refrain from adressing that post of yours Gundato. Going over it in detail It wouldn't do anybody any good (not to mention people are probably bored out of their minds with our shit by now) and i agree with you on one thing, this thread was defnitely derailed by someone right from the get go in order to try to dismiss and ridicule the event in question (kinda like what militants usually do, wouldn't you say ?). Anyway, I ended up taking the bait and contributing to derail the thread even more, true, my bad.
And i just can't wrap my head around your 'attacks' thing. Every single thread, case in point - this one, even remotely related to DRM and there you are with snide remarks, whimsical labels, and ridiculing other people's views and opinons any way you can (mostly really bad analogies :p). But when someone tells you frontally without any bs what they think of how (badly) you adress the issues, and BAM!, attack. Weird...
Anyway, I sincerely wish you an happy International Day Against DRM.
And i just can't wrap my head around your 'attacks' thing. Every single thread, case in point - this one, even remotely related to DRM and there you are with snide remarks, whimsical labels, and ridiculing other people's views and opinons any way you can (mostly really bad analogies :p). But when someone tells you frontally without any bs what they think of how (badly) you adress the issues, and BAM!, attack. Weird...
Anyway, I sincerely wish you an happy International Day Against DRM.
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Oriza-Triznyák
garbage features like achievements.
Registered: Apr 2009
From Other
Posted May 03, 2010
![Orryyrro](https://images.gog.com/4ffea882457f13f28aaa4d97c9b5ac68180dcb4a80032c93824531601dea50d8_forum_avatar.jpg)
Orryyrro
Flying Squirrel!
Registered: Mar 2010
From Canada
Posted May 03, 2010
I've already explained why that is false. It's not very restrictive seeing how not many people sell the games they buy, especially for the PC, less so if they are buying classic games, but it still infringes on my right to resell, hence it is DRM.
DRM is not evil, or necessarily restrictive, and there are plenty of things I can think of that would ruin a game experience worse without being able to be called DRM in any way shape or form, at least not while sticking to DRM's literal definition of Digital Rights Management.
Example - MMO model - company allows anyone to download game software for free, but keeps game data on a server, only allowing people who buy an account access to the server.
The can not legitimately be described as DRM, but in a single player game it is rather restrictive. The actual software is free, and you can copy it, give it to someone else, you can even modify it to make it work without the account if you do it for yourself, although this would involve accessing the game server to see what's missing so you'd need to buy an account to do that legitimately anyway, so long as the software is actually available for free. If you actually have to buy it, then there is a whole different issue of being sold an incomplete product, etc.
That is only one example of something that ISN'T DRM that is at least as bad, if not worse for the consumer than most models. (note that Ubi's model isn't quite the same as this one, and still is DRM)
![Npl](https://images.gog.com/b22b5e1aa66ce2027d57e140e28bc5c088c28b3ad523aa8108a0b842f1264003_forum_avatar.jpg)
Npl
Sloth
Registered: Nov 2008
From Austria
Posted May 03, 2010
![avatar](/upload/avatars/2010/03/8b6f96f3df7b9685c67da066ddbd1087fd243219_t2.jpg)
![avatar](/upload/avatars/2010/03/8b6f96f3df7b9685c67da066ddbd1087fd243219_t2.jpg)
The can not legitimately be described as DRM, but in a single player game it is rather restrictive. The actual software is free, and you can copy it, give it to someone else, you can even modify it to make it work without the account if you do it for yourself, although this would involve accessing the game server to see what's missing so you'd need to buy an account to do that legitimately anyway, so long as the software is actually available for free. If you actually have to buy it, then there is a whole different issue of being sold an incomplete product, etc.
That is only one example of something that ISN'T DRM that is at least as bad, if not worse for the consumer than most models. (note that Ubi's model isn't quite the same as this one, and still is DRM)
![Gundato](https://images.gog.com/864386935c14b88e4356ed6a797c06cc38c993067a5da8d9663bba985240956f_forum_avatar.jpg)
Gundato
The Peepe
Registered: Sep 2008
From United States
Posted May 03, 2010
![avatar](/upload/avatars/2008/12/fb732982a8173b8a1b25a9eef31321324ce51209_t2.jpg)
The problem is, DRM itself is defined as the edge cases, really.
Edge Case 1: GoG. At the very least, GoG does not allow the resale of games. Do we consider that a part of DRM? If so, do we care about that?
Edge Case 2: The disc check/copy-protection. Do we consider that part of DRM? If so, do we care about that?
And so forth.
The big problem with DRM is that, as person with skeletony avatar has been saying (I like him :p), DRM in and of itself is not evil. So if you say "No DRM" outright, you are going to open a can of worms.
Let's say you are like some of the people in this thread and don't think Steam is a DRM-model in and of itself. So your group makes a very public boycott of all DRM, then half the group buys every Steam game on sale. Remind you of L4D2 or MW2? :p
THAT is why we need to either define what DRM counts as (for the purpose of saying it is all ebil and should be burned at the stake and all that), or we figure out what aspects of DRM we don't like (and let's not break this down into intent. Let's stick to the actual things like authentications and the like).
![Orryyrro](https://images.gog.com/4ffea882457f13f28aaa4d97c9b5ac68180dcb4a80032c93824531601dea50d8_forum_avatar.jpg)
Orryyrro
Flying Squirrel!
Registered: Mar 2010
From Canada
Posted May 03, 2010
Namur: gog in itself as a platform is 100% DRM free, gog's catalogue is 100% DRM free.
Orryyrro: I've already explained why that is false. It's not very restrictive seeing how not many people sell the games they buy, especially for the PC, less so if they are buying classic games, but it still infringes on my right to resell, hence it is DRM.
Npl: Nope, its merely a custom contract, DRM means digital management (read: enforcement) of rights. Nothing practically stops you from selling the game, except its not legal to do so. But thats nothing related to DRM, just as its illegal to go over to your neighbour and whack him with a baseball-bat. He might not let you in if he knows your intent, but even if he locks the door as protection its no form of DRM.
Except I have the legal RIGHT to resell media, as entitled by Canadian LAW. DRM isn't the Digital Management of Rights, it is the Management of Digital Rights, otherwise the D and the M would be grouped together and it would be DMR or RDM. It has nothing to do with HOW it enforces rights, in fact, if all it does is enforce rights it is not DRM, it is when it CHANGES your RIGHTS that it becomes DRM, Managing your Digital Rights so to speak.
Orryyrro: Example - MMO model - company allows anyone to download game software for free, but keeps game data on a server, only allowing people who buy an account access to the server.
The can not legitimately be described as DRM, but in a single player game it is rather restrictive. The actual software is free, and you can copy it, give it to someone else, you can even modify it to make it work without the account if you do it for yourself, although this would involve accessing the game server to see what's missing so you'd need to buy an account to do that legitimately anyway, so long as the software is actually available for free. If you actually have to buy it, then there is a whole different issue of being sold an incomplete product, etc.
That is only one example of something that ISN'T DRM that is at least as bad, if not worse for the consumer than most models. (note that Ubi's model isn't quite the same as this one, and still is DRM)
Npl:Wow, you got that totally wrong, having the product in your hands (the game) and not being able to use it because of a (digital) system that requires you to identify yourself to prove your rights is practically the definition of DRM.
And no, DRM has nothing to do with proving your rights, it has to do with changing them, if it was proving them it would be Digital Rights Verification, or Proof of Digital Rights, Management does not prove a company exists, it runs the company. If it isn't changing your rights, it isn't managing them.
EDIT: Wish the quoting system worked better.
Orryyrro: I've already explained why that is false. It's not very restrictive seeing how not many people sell the games they buy, especially for the PC, less so if they are buying classic games, but it still infringes on my right to resell, hence it is DRM.
Npl: Nope, its merely a custom contract, DRM means digital management (read: enforcement) of rights. Nothing practically stops you from selling the game, except its not legal to do so. But thats nothing related to DRM, just as its illegal to go over to your neighbour and whack him with a baseball-bat. He might not let you in if he knows your intent, but even if he locks the door as protection its no form of DRM.
Except I have the legal RIGHT to resell media, as entitled by Canadian LAW. DRM isn't the Digital Management of Rights, it is the Management of Digital Rights, otherwise the D and the M would be grouped together and it would be DMR or RDM. It has nothing to do with HOW it enforces rights, in fact, if all it does is enforce rights it is not DRM, it is when it CHANGES your RIGHTS that it becomes DRM, Managing your Digital Rights so to speak.
![avatar](/upload/avatars/2010/03/8b6f96f3df7b9685c67da066ddbd1087fd243219_t2.jpg)
The can not legitimately be described as DRM, but in a single player game it is rather restrictive. The actual software is free, and you can copy it, give it to someone else, you can even modify it to make it work without the account if you do it for yourself, although this would involve accessing the game server to see what's missing so you'd need to buy an account to do that legitimately anyway, so long as the software is actually available for free. If you actually have to buy it, then there is a whole different issue of being sold an incomplete product, etc.
That is only one example of something that ISN'T DRM that is at least as bad, if not worse for the consumer than most models. (note that Ubi's model isn't quite the same as this one, and still is DRM)
Npl:Wow, you got that totally wrong, having the product in your hands (the game) and not being able to use it because of a (digital) system that requires you to identify yourself to prove your rights is practically the definition of DRM.
And no, DRM has nothing to do with proving your rights, it has to do with changing them, if it was proving them it would be Digital Rights Verification, or Proof of Digital Rights, Management does not prove a company exists, it runs the company. If it isn't changing your rights, it isn't managing them.
EDIT: Wish the quoting system worked better.
Post edited May 03, 2010 by Orryyrro
![Npl](https://images.gog.com/b22b5e1aa66ce2027d57e140e28bc5c088c28b3ad523aa8108a0b842f1264003_forum_avatar.jpg)
Npl
Sloth
Registered: Nov 2008
From Austria
Posted May 03, 2010
![avatar](/upload/avatars/2010/03/8b6f96f3df7b9685c67da066ddbd1087fd243219_t2.jpg)
And no, your rights and liabilities are set up by contracts, gog beeing not under Canadian law you have to accept the terms or dont do business, wheter you find them morally right or not.
DRM technology is just that - a digital managment system that allows the publisher/owner to enforce the access of the content.
![avatar](/upload/avatars/2010/03/8b6f96f3df7b9685c67da066ddbd1087fd243219_t2.jpg)
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Orryyrro
Flying Squirrel!
Registered: Mar 2010
From Canada
Posted May 03, 2010
![avatar](/www/default/-img/newuser_small.png)
And no, your rights and liabilities are set up by contracts, gog beeing not under Canadian law you have to accept the terms or dont do business, wheter you find them morally right or not.
DRM technology is just that - a digital managment system that allows the publisher/owner to enforce the access of the content.
It isn't called MDR because when you drop the of you rearrange to words to maintain the meaning, Management Digital Rights doesn't make sense, Digital Rights Management carries the same meaning.
And to gog not being under Canadian law, not quite, they are selling to Canada, in order to do so they have to insure I am able to do everything I am legally entitled to do, this wouldn't be the case if I had to go to Poland to buy the games, BUT I buy them in Canada.
And yes, DRM technology is what you describe, but only if said technology actually affects what you have the right to do. And, DRM is more than just technology.
![Stuff](https://images.gog.com/8a121b4699f73feeb282d255bd2bb04e17e8e8fdf597a2e6f1668e724400b066_forum_avatar.jpg)
Stuff
Resident Old Man
Registered: Dec 2008
From United States
Posted May 03, 2010
So many opinions presented as facts. So many countries applying their definitions of DRM to other countries. So much hostility, so much name calling. I must join Namur ( and probably the majority of folks here ) in saying GOG meets all of my requirements for DRM free. I have found no other distribution service that compares.
I consider the "no resale" to be contractual since it was explained before I was allowed to create an account and was easily recognized as a publisher requirement. If you must have that, buy from eBay. It is much the same as agreeing that any patents I may obtain will be the property of my employer. . . I knew it going in and found it to be acceptable.
Logging in is a network security function and has nothing to do with me playing games. I logged on to my personal computers this morning, that had no affect on my game play as well. Feel free to think otherwise and don't fault me for not agreeing with you.
I consider the "no resale" to be contractual since it was explained before I was allowed to create an account and was easily recognized as a publisher requirement. If you must have that, buy from eBay. It is much the same as agreeing that any patents I may obtain will be the property of my employer. . . I knew it going in and found it to be acceptable.
Logging in is a network security function and has nothing to do with me playing games. I logged on to my personal computers this morning, that had no affect on my game play as well. Feel free to think otherwise and don't fault me for not agreeing with you.
![Orryyrro](https://images.gog.com/4ffea882457f13f28aaa4d97c9b5ac68180dcb4a80032c93824531601dea50d8_forum_avatar.jpg)
Orryyrro
Flying Squirrel!
Registered: Mar 2010
From Canada
Posted May 03, 2010
![avatar](/upload/avatars/2009/10/08e80cfd4a48f7c556eae4e6c31ef3d93b6332e0_t2.jpg)
I consider the "no resale" to be contractual since it was explained before I was allowed to create an account and was easily recognized as a publisher requirement. If you must have that, buy from eBay. It is much the same as agreeing that any patents I may obtain will be the property of my employer. . . I knew it going in and found it to be acceptable.
Logging in is a network security function and has nothing to do with me playing games. I logged on to my personal computers this morning, that had no affect on my game play as well. Feel free to think otherwise and don't fault me for not agreeing with you.
I didn't say I had to have the ability to resell, I said that it would count as DRM in some countries. I also didn't say DRM was bad. Restricted game-play due to DRM is bad, but I have no problem with the concept of it.(granted, it won't stop piracy without being restrictive)
But I have absolutely no problem with the brand of DRM gog provides( and yes it is DRM) I also have no problem with Steam, which is DRM too.
I'm against this whole "International Day Against DRM"
Because if the DRM is bad enough on a game that it should warrant a day to not buy it, you shouldn't buy it to begin with, and if there is non-restrictive DRM on a game that you hardly even notice it, then you shouldn't have a problem buying the game ever. In fact, buying non-restrictive games, and passing over the ones that have insane restrictions is exactly what has to be done if companies are ever going to realise how to treat consumers properly.