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SirPrimalform: So Kinetic Void is on Steam Greenlight and it looks like if they make it they're going to be making it Steamworks only. This is only a problem because they said it would be DRM-free.

Anyone else fucked off about this?

Source (scroll down to the guy's comments): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/seanpollman/kinetic-void/posts/298849
I am. Until Sean comes out to offer a non-Steam version, this is going to be the last game/project from him I'll ever support. Then again even if he does, I'll have to reconsider my position, judging from the way he's handling this.

I'm perfectly fine with buying Steamworks games -- if I'd been told it's one right from the start. The only Steamworks KS project I was willing to support was Project Eternity (which is now DRM free anyway), and even so that was at the max of $20, because it is going to be designed by a bunch of dudes I trust. With Kinetic Void, it was mostly out of goodwill for a hybrid genre where such games are in scarcity.

Trying to restrain myself from being rude as I'm making this post btw, but it's a bit difficult...
Post edited September 22, 2012 by lowyhong
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lowyhong: I'm perfectly fine with buying Steamworks games -- if I'm being told it's one right from the start.
It's not even that for me.
The fact is, I wouldn't have backed it if he hadn't said it would be DRM-free but if hadn't said anything about DRM at all and I'd still backed it, I wouldn't be at all pissed off at this point. Disappointed yes, but not lied to.

As it is though, he specifically said it'd be DRM-free and now appears to be going back on that.
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LumberingTroll: We do not intent to put any kind of DRM into the game. Its not cost effective and would just be cracked anyway. We will try to get it on as many digital distribution platforms as possible. GOG and GamersGate would allow you to play without any connection at all, where Steam would require you to be in offline mode. We have not secured any distributors yet, so this is not a final statement as to where it will be available, at the extreme worst side, we would sell and host it straight from our site as a simple install.
*cough*

Also, I see now that you actually avoided Xyem's question. He asked if he'd be able to install and play completely offline and your reply gives the impression of a yes without actually stating as much.
Still, you state that you'll try and get it on as many sites as you can and fall back on a self hosted installer, so I expect that if you can't get it anywhere else DRM-free.
There really isn't much to discuss, the game is not done and our distribution isn't final. You guys seem to want to cause a problem just to cause a problem. I am sorry you think that Steam is DRM, but its not DRM any more than GoG or Desura is, you have to log in to download the game. it does have options similar to traditional DRM, in which steam would have to be installed and running in order to play the game, we wouldn't use that.

As for needing to be logged in well if I hosted it myself I would have to set up an authentication system and hosting which all would take time and money, and you would still need to log in to download the game, so this isn't a valid argument at all.

Complaining that you would need to register a steam account (which is free) is the problem doesn't make sense either because you need to register on any other platform, or even if I hosted it myself as well.

Again, maybe it would be best to put the torches and pitchforks away until some decisions have actual been made. This is why most developers are not so open with their community, consider that. We do not have to be as open as we are, we choose to be. I appreciate your support by backing us / pre-ordering but I will always make decisions based on what is best for Badland Studio, as the owner of the company and the employer of a team that is my obligation.
Post edited September 23, 2012 by LumberingTroll
Excuse me while I tear this post apart.

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LumberingTroll: There really isn't much to discuss, the game is not done and our distribution isn't final.
Okay, then why are you discussing the possibility of the game not being DRM-free to customers that paid for a DRM-free product?

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LumberingTroll: You guys seem to want to cause a problem just to cause a problem.
This rubs me the wrong way. They're voicing legitimate concerns based on a drastic change in thinking that you made and this statement places the blame entirely on them.

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LumberingTroll: I am sorry you think that Steam is DRM, but its not DRM any more than GoG or Desura is, you have to log in to download the game. it does have options similar to traditional DRM, in which steam would have to be installed and running in order to play the game, we wouldn't use that.
Most of the concerns lie in the fact that there is no guarantee that you won't use it. You can say all you want between now and then, when it comes down to it, you may decide it's "better for everyone".

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LumberingTroll: As for needing to be logged in well if I hosted it myself I would have to set up an authentication system and hosting which all would take time and money, and you would still need to log in to download the game, so this isn't a valid argument at all.
See below. And considering there are outfits that seem smaller than yours running indie bundles with full authentication systems, I don't think time/money really apply here.

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LumberingTroll: Complaining that you would need to register a steam account (which is free) is the problem doesn't make sense either because you need to register on any other platform, or even if I hosted it myself as well.
Not necessarily. It could work the way bundles work where they're tied to an email address, but they are a link that can be accessible at any time without a password (unless you opt into the account features).

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LumberingTroll: Again, maybe it would be best to put the torches and pitchforks away until some decisions have actual been made. This is why most developers are not so open with their community, consider that. We do not have to be as open as we are, we choose to be. I appreciate your support by backing us / pre-ordering but I will always make decisions based on what is best for Badland Studio, as the owner of the company and the employer of a team that is my obligation.
This isn't communication in any sort of a positive way at all. You're telling people that there's a chance that you're going to go back on what you said when they invested in your unreleased product and then you're blaming them when they get mad, rather than stating why you'd even think about doing that to begin with. Gamersgate, GOG, Desura, they all exist and allow DRM-free downloads to occur. Desura even has a low barrier of entry, and even companies like Interplay are on it.

Going with Steam exclusively sounds like you plan to work something out so that it will, in fact, require Steam's DRM. I can't think of a single Steam-exclusive game that doesn't.

So, in the end, it's not the consumer's fault. You're essentially telling them that you are going back on your promise of DRM-free-ness, and following it up by saying that there's essentially no way around it if you get accepted onto Steam. What if you don't? You're going to have to spend time and money to create your own authentication system? Paypal, random keys, store to database, check for validity, make sure it's secure. Done.
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LumberingTroll: There really isn't much to discuss, the game is not done and our distribution isn't final. You guys seem to want to cause a problem just to cause a problem. I am sorry you think that Steam is DRM, but its not DRM any more than GoG or Desura is, you have to log in to download the game. it does have options similar to traditional DRM, in which steam would have to be installed and running in order to play the game, we wouldn't use that.

As for needing to be logged in well if I hosted it myself I would have to set up an authentication system and hosting which all would take time and money, and you would still need to log in to download the game, so this isn't a valid argument at all.

Complaining that you would need to register a steam account (which is free) is the problem doesn't make sense either because you need to register on any other platform, or even if I hosted it myself as well.

Again, maybe it would be best to put the torches and pitchforks away until some decisions have actual been made. This is why most developers are not so open with their community, consider that. We do not have to be as open as we are, we choose to be. I appreciate your support by backing us / pre-ordering but I will always make decisions based on what is best for Badland Studio, as the owner of the company and the employer of a team that is my obligation.
It's hard to imagine a more poorly worded response to this query...
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LumberingTroll: There really isn't much to discuss, the game is not done and our distribution isn't final.
There's plenty do discuss. While the distribution method is not set in stone, the fact that you're even talking about it being Steam exclusive is a big betrayal considering you said it would be DRM-free.

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LumberingTroll: You guys seem to want to cause a problem just to cause a problem.
I resent that accusation. The fact is, I very much dislike DRM and would not have backed your project had you not stated there would be no DRM. The fact that you're considering (intending even) to go back on your word is a problem.

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LumberingTroll: I am sorry you think that Steam is DRM, but its not DRM any more than GoG or Desura is, you have to log in to download the game.
With GOG you have to log in to download the game. You sure as hell don't have to log in to install.
With Steam you have to log in to install the game, this is online activation.

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LumberingTroll: it does have options similar to traditional DRM, in which steam would have to be installed and running in order to play the game, we wouldn't use that.
That doesn't make the game DRM-free, it's just one layer of DRM stripped away.

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LumberingTroll: As for needing to be logged in well if I hosted it myself I would have to set up an authentication system and hosting which all would take time and money, and you would still need to log in to download the game, so this isn't a valid argument at all.
It's a perfectly valid argument. I'd have to log in to download the game, but if it was DRM-free I certainly wouldn't have to log in to install.

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LumberingTroll: Complaining that you would need to register a steam account (which is free) is the problem doesn't make sense either because you need to register on any other platform, or even if I hosted it myself as well.
I'm certainly not complaining about having to register an account. I already have a Steam account in fact. I don't like Steam though because of the DRM, and more importantly Kinetic Void is supposed to be DRM-free.

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LumberingTroll: Again, maybe it would be best to put the torches and pitchforks away until some decisions have actual been made. This is why most developers are not so open with their community, consider that. We do not have to be as open as we are, we choose to be. I appreciate your support by backing us / pre-ordering but I will always make decisions based on what is best for Badland Studio, as the owner of the company and the employer of a team that is my obligation.
The decision may not have been made yet (as you haven't been greenlit yet), but you clearly stated your intent in the comments thread of the update. This has nothing to do with being open with your community or not, it has everything to do with honouring the claims you made in order to secure your backing.
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htown1980: It's hard to imagine a more poorly worded response to this query...
Indeed, all those words when he could have just said, "We don't want your money, feck off." Not even one line and somewhat more honest.
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htown1980: It's hard to imagine a more poorly worded response to this query...
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hedwards: Indeed, all those words when he could have just said, "We don't want your money, feck off." Not even one line and somewhat more honest.
Actually, it's more like "We've already got your money, feck off".
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hedwards: Indeed, all those words when he could have just said, "We don't want your money, feck off." Not even one line and somewhat more honest.
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SirPrimalform: Actually, it's more like "We've already got your money, feck off".
That's your money, this isn't a project I backed. :-P

But yes.
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SirPrimalform: Actually, it's more like "We've already got your money, feck off".
Yeah, I'm shocked that he would act like that. I mean, yes, he got the money to cover development costs, but what about the money that's supposed to be actual profit? He's screwing himself over right now.
Post edited September 23, 2012 by johnki
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SirPrimalform: Actually, it's more like "We've already got your money, feck off".
It's "We've got the money of anti-DRM crowd on KS, now we're off to peddle our wares to the 'no Steam - no sale' masses"
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SirPrimalform: Actually, it's more like "We've already got your money, feck off".
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hedwards: That's your money, this isn't a project I backed. :-P

But yes.
Well he's saying one to you and one to me, either way it's not a very nice thing to say to those who gave him money to help him make his damn game.
I guess I knew there was going to come a day when I discovered backing a particular Kickstarter was a mistake, but I'm kind of sad it turned out to be this one.

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SirPrimalform: Actually, it's more like "We've already got your money, feck off".
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grviper: It's "We've got the money of anti-DRM crowd on KS, now we're off to peddle our wares to the 'no Steam - no sale' masses"
But the ridiculous thing is that he could do that without screwing us over. It's not like he can't release in two places. Say, Steam and the Humble Store.
Post edited September 23, 2012 by SirPrimalform
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SirPrimalform: But the ridiculous thing is that he could do that without screwing us over. It's not like he can't release in two places. Say, Steam and the Humble Store.
Yeah, that's by far the most startling part, and the one that makes me think it'll use Steam's DRM. The part where he thinks it's either Steam OR DRM-free platforms.

In the end, I don't think he has a lot of business sense, and I mean that in the most unbiased way possible, since I didn't back this.
Post edited September 23, 2012 by johnki
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hedwards: That's your money, this isn't a project I backed. :-P

But yes.
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SirPrimalform: Well he's saying one to you and one to me, either way it's not a very nice thing to say to those who gave him money to help him make his damn game.
I guess I knew there was going to come a day when I discovered backing a particular Kickstarter was a mistake, but I'm kind of sad it turned out to be this one.
I've been having my own trouble with Primer labs, but it's completely legitimate, they don't have many folks for support and the KS kept demanding more features so what would have been out months ago only came out like a week or so ago, as an Alpha.

Still, I like what I'm seeing and they do appear to be doing a ton of work, so I can't be too upset about that. Code Hero looks like it's shaping up to be awesome.