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After seeing this I wonder if the successor of DotA will be one of the new stand alone games like League of Legends/Heroes of Newerth or simply a SC2 mod...
Who knows maybe in the end people will purchase SC2 for its mods/TC's like they did with Half-life for years.
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anjohl: Nah, if the "point" is essentially an algorithmic game that can be played by a spreadsheet (basebuilding, baserush, etc) than the game lacks any true strategy.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Do you mean algorithmic as in fairly deterministic? Chess is about as deterministic as you can get, that doesn't make it devoid of any strategy.
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anjohl: Nah, if the "point" is essentially an algorithmic game that can be played by a spreadsheet (basebuilding, baserush, etc) than the game lacks any true strategy.
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pkt-zer0: I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Do you mean algorithmic as in fairly deterministic? Chess is about as deterministic as you can get, that doesn't make it devoid of any strategy.

Algorithmic and deterministic in that there are no choices to be made. There is *always* a "best move" in base-building "RTS" games (I use that label lightly, since there is no strategy involved), so the act of having human players play each other is a futile gesture that only works because of human nature to err. So in essence, traditional RTS is a genre for people likely to make errors, where the "good" or "top" players will simply be the players who play the game properly, making the whole venture pointless.
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pkt-zer0: I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Do you mean algorithmic as in fairly deterministic? Chess is about as deterministic as you can get, that doesn't make it devoid of any strategy.
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anjohl: Algorithmic and deterministic in that there are no choices to be made. There is *always* a "best move" in base-building "RTS" games (I use that label lightly, since there is no strategy involved), so the act of having human players play each other is a futile gesture that only works because of human nature to err. So in essence, traditional RTS is a genre for people likely to make errors, where the "good" or "top" players will simply be the players who play the game properly, making the whole venture pointless.

No offense, but go tell that to the pros. I would really like to hear their replies. :)
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anjohl: Algorithmic and deterministic in that there are no choices to be made. There is *always* a "best move" in base-building "RTS" games (I use that label lightly, since there is no strategy involved), so the act of having human players play each other is a futile gesture that only works because of human nature to err. So in essence, traditional RTS is a genre for people likely to make errors, where the "good" or "top" players will simply be the players who play the game properly, making the whole venture pointless.

Any game that doesn't have an element of randomness will and does have a best move and a course of action that will lead someone to always win. Does that matter? Not really, because we rarely ever know the moves that will lead us to victory.
Watch some professional Starcraft games. It's far more strategic than you think.
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anjohl: Algorithmic and deterministic in that there are no choices to be made. There is *always* a "best move" in base-building "RTS" games (I use that label lightly, since there is no strategy involved), so the act of having human players play each other is a futile gesture that only works because of human nature to err. So in essence, traditional RTS is a genre for people likely to make errors, where the "good" or "top" players will simply be the players who play the game properly, making the whole venture pointless.
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KavazovAngel: No offense, but go tell that to the pros. I would really like to hear their replies. :)

The "pros" opinions are irrelevant. You can call a fish a cat if you like, but it won't meow.
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anjohl: Algorithmic and deterministic in that there are no choices to be made. There is *always* a "best move" in base-building "RTS" games (I use that label lightly, since there is no strategy involved), so the act of having human players play each other is a futile gesture that only works because of human nature to err. So in essence, traditional RTS is a genre for people likely to make errors, where the "good" or "top" players will simply be the players who play the game properly, making the whole venture pointless.
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PoSSeSSeDCoW: Any game that doesn't have an element of randomness will and does have a best move and a course of action that will lead someone to always win. Does that matter? Not really, because we rarely ever know the moves that will lead us to victory.

Not true. CHOICES are the key, and good game balancing and design. Starcraft, and it's genre, are nothing more than "tower building" games, where each step up the tower has a logical next move. PROPER game design will have many equally logical paths to victory, none weighted more than the either, until circumstances change drastically. Chess is a good example of this, since only the first 5-10 moves of a chess game are predetermined logically.
Post edited September 08, 2009 by anjohl
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anjohl: Not true. CHOICES are the key, and good game balancing and design. Starcraft, and it's genre, are nothing more than "tower building" games, where each step up the tower has a logical next move. PROPER game design will have many equally logical paths to victory, none weighted more than the either, until circumstances change drastically. Chess is a good example of this, since only the first 5-10 moves of a chess game are predetermined logically.

With this comment, I'm pretty sure you haven't played Starcraft.
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anjohl: Algorithmic and deterministic in that there are no choices to be made. There is *always* a "best move" in base-building "RTS" games

And you know that because...? It took twenty years for a whole load of computers to solve checkers, after all.
Not to mention, incomplete information (fog of war) makes selecting that best move consistently pretty much impossible.
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anjohl: Chess is a good example of this

Of a game that can just be played by "spreadsheets" (some might call them supercomputers). You are aware that nowadays computers can defeat even the most skilled chess players, correct?
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anjohl: Chess is a good example of this, since only the first 5-10 moves of a chess game are predetermined logically.

Chess is a fine example of the problem you accuse Starcraft of having; lack of variety to the degree that there always is one ideal course of action. Whether Starcraft also has that problem, I wouldn't know. It is, however, evident that both Chess and Starcraft have sufficiently variety to ensure human players cannot determine the ideal course of action 100% of the time.
And as long as that is true, the problem really isn't a problem.
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anjohl: Chess is a good example of this, since only the first 5-10 moves of a chess game are predetermined logically.
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Disconnected: Chess is a fine example of the problem you accuse Starcraft of having; lack of variety to the degree that there always is one ideal course of action. Whether Starcraft also has that problem, I wouldn't know. It is, however, evident that both Chess and Starcraft have sufficiently variety to ensure human players cannot determine the ideal course of action 100% of the time.
And as long as that is true, the problem really isn't a problem.

Chess often has predetermined best DEFENSIVE moves, but RARELY is there *one* best offensive move, since there are various levels of strategy, in particular whether or not one wants to feint an attack, set up a future attack, etc.
Regardless, this conversation is going nowhere. You people are arguing with me as if I had imparted an opinion, when what I did was explain fact. There is no arguing with fact. Please continue among yourselves.
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anjohl: Regardless, this conversation is going nowhere. You people are arguing with me as if I had imparted an opinion, when what I did was explain fact. There is no arguing with fact. Please continue among yourselves.

Your "fact" is wrong, hombre.
Edit: Inserted derisive quotes.
Post edited September 09, 2009 by PoSSeSSeDCoW
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anjohl: Regardless, this conversation is going nowhere. You people are arguing with me as if I had imparted an opinion, when what I did was explain fact. There is no arguing with fact. Please continue among yourselves.

Maybe you should back up your irrefutable facts with sources or citations to convince the unbelievers?
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anjohl: since there are various levels of strategy, in particular whether or not one wants to feint an attack, set up a future attack, etc.

Because there is no such thing as a feint in SC, or setting up a future attack? You are making less and less sense.
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anjohl: Regardless, this conversation is going nowhere. You people are arguing with me as if I had imparted an opinion, when what I did was explain fact. There is no arguing with fact.

...And this is where it became painfully obvious that you've already thrown common sense out the window.
For the record, I asked you to explain that "fact" just in my previous post. However, you've done nothing to do so.
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michaelleung: Oh really? Even this?
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Ezri: I'm referring to their actual games (StarCraft, Warcraft, Diablo). Not the ones they made in the 1980s that nobody cares about and that Blizzard denies ever making.

Not to nitpic or anything, but the Death of Superman game was made in the 1994, Blizzard itself didn't even exist until 1991 and I'd really like to see where they have denied working on that game, or any other non-Warcraft/Starcraft/Diablo game (they did make about a dozen games before Warcraft).
DRM like Steam is even worse... I don't want a program on and connected to the Internet on for all my games. I mean shesh, at first it seemed like a good idea, now everyone has their own online distribution system that requires verification.. That's why I like GOG.com, a simple INSTALLER from the site.