Slovenia's economy went to shitter after joining euro currency.

I don't know if you read Polish, but take a look for example at this:
http://wyborcza.biz/biznes/1,101562,9680828,Slowenia__Jestesmy_krok_od_przepasci.html

and when wyborcza writes somethin's wrong with EU, it's BAD.

it does suffer from EUR indeed. I personally like the concept of EUR but it seems that it was way too early for everyone to accept it.

well. we have to see how the situation develops with slovenia but because they are having problems do not mean they are poor.

The people here on the paying side would want to hear these reservations and plans beforehand before shelling out (more) money to the bottomless pit, based on broken promises. That's why e.g. Finland has been so keen on getting guarantees for its loans (nothing worthwile really came out of it), or opposing majority decisions regarding how Finnish money is used for helping other EU countries that apparently don't want to be helped. We are getting just as tired of this situation as you are, as we have our own problems as well (it is not like our state budget is showing a surplus either).

Getting out of euro may be the only sensible way for Greece to get out of the current situation, as then your new currency could devaluate freely. Argentina may have some earlier experiences to share, as does indeed even Finland with its own monetary crisis in the early 90s, when the Finnish mark devaluated strongly.

"For some reason" the polls seem to indicate that most Greeks are still not willing to leave euro. I presume the reasons are all the money they get from other EU countries, and they are afraid of the devaluation => astronomical inflation, all imports get much more expensive for Greeks. But as said, maybe that is the only way to get out of it.

And as far as I'm concerned, UK (Cameron) and US (Obama) can shut up as they are not participating in this process, even though they have much bigger related risks in their banks than e.g. Finland which has barely any, yet has to pay for some reason. Just start capitalizing your banks before Greece and many other EU countries collapse if they have risks in said countries.

Yeah, I phrazed my sentence incorrectly / inaccurately. It's because of my English. Slovenia isn't a poor country, but is a country facing near bankruptcy. Just like Poland, hehe. And we're not even in euro zone.

I still can't believe that Poland is going to be basically paying to save Greece and its overblown public service sector; after all, we have our own fat cat bureaucrats to feed so we can't afford to pay for someone else's bureaucrats.

That leaves the question: who should pay for saving the PIIGS countries (and other similar)? German alone, maybe France? Finland also has long-term problems with budget deficit, and Finnish banks have not been shelling out grazy loans to PIIGS countries, thus (not) causing this mess.

I guess the only fair process would be that Greece and others would just collapse, and the countries which have banks with related risks (UK, Germany, France, maybe even US) would face the consequences, maybe by capitalizing their own banks if needed. But hardly anyone really wants this either because the overall consequences can be quite severe.

It is not that many months ago when e.g. Poland was lecturing the "rich Northern countries" (like Finland, I guess) who don't show enough solidarity by shelling out money with no questions asked to weaker countries (like Greece).

This discussion demonstrates one thing: every party (in different countries) feel the situation is unfair to them, be it Greece, Germany, Finland, Poland, UK etc. :D So who is on the winning side then, or is anyone? At least no one wants to pay anyone else's debts, that's clear now.

- UK doesn't want to participate in an "euro mess", it is not "their problem"

- Poland doesn't want to pay to Greece because they have problems of their own

- Finland doesn't want to channel its money through Greece and other PIIGS countries into saving German, French and UK banks who have bad loans in said countries, especially as Finland (or its banks) has not been part of making this mess

- Germans feel they have to pay everything alone and every other EU country is just leeching them

- Greeks feel other countries are putting too much pressure on them and holding them accountable for something the common Greeks have no part in, but it is their corrupted officials.

- US is just overall miffed that there is a mess in EU that can affect them too, and now the EU bastards want to use IMF money too for the mess.

- China is probably feeling a bit same as US.

- Russia doesn't even know what we are talking about, doesn't concern them.

etc.

Those polls shouldn't be taken too seriously. After all, if most Hellenes really wanted to stay in the European Union, why would the referendum have been shot down? The truth of the matter is that many Hellenes not only do not consider themselves European but also have anti-European sentiments. Even state-run polls indicate this fact and, moreover, demonstrate that this sentiment has been growing.

Consider, for instance, the following: A poll in 2001 (i.e. the same year the country joined the eurozone) revealed that 70% of Hellenes felt more Hellenic than European and 17% completely rejected the concept of a European identity. In stark contrast, only 8% felt both Hellenic and European and only 1% felt European first and then Hellenic. In 2007, a poll revealed that anti-European sentiments had grown with 20.5% of Hellenes feeling that "Hellas does not even belong in Europe". These sentiments clash immensely with the wishful rhetoric of pro-Western politicians. Kostas Simitis, a member of PASOK (Pan-Hellenic Socialist Movement) and as prime minister in 2000, made the following statement after meeting with Belgian Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt: "We are first of all Europeans, because we belong to Europe geographically. Greece is European because Europe is also Greek. The path toward Europe is a course toward the ideals and values that Greece has expressed and defended for decades and centuries”. He even characterized the very question of whether Hellenes should consider themselves Hellenic or European first as "a false and non-existent dilemma". Imagine his horror and embarrassment when these survey results -- which indicated that a large and growing portion of the populace completely rejected the artificial European identity that he had worked so hard to force upon the people of Hellas -- were published.

What you should take away from these facts is that there exists a fanatically (and slavishly) Europhile ruling caste (which is very wealthy and comfortable as puppets for the West) and a strong and growing current of Hellenes who oppose the European Union (and Europe for that matter) for very legitimate reasons. However, the former group enjoys its position and, thus, tries to present the people as it would like them to be and not how they are. The Greek media (and I intentionally use the word "Greek" instead of "Hellenic") is controlled by the state and does not reflect reality. The same goes for other institutions that one generally considers "independent". In Hellas, corruption and cronyism is very rampant.

In any case, the Europeans brought this problem upon themselves. Hellas is basically a third-world country with no industry to speak of -- even though tremendous natural resources (including oil) exist. (The main "industry" is officially listed as tourism which, of course, is not an industry.) The Greek political establishment faked economic data to enter the eurozone and what did the Europeans do to punish the political establishment? Nothing, even though one would reasonably expect the country to have been kicked out of the eurozone, if not the EU altogether. However, the Europeans want Hellas to remain within the EU for geopolitical reasons and to keep the country small, weak, and pathetic. A truly independent and sovereign Hellas is something that grips Western politicians with great fear.

Also, the conflict over debt has had another positive effect: it has shown that the hatred the West has for Hellenes is a fact and not something imaginary (as pro-European individuals have been trying to brainwash us into believing since 1981 when the country joined the EU). As much as I detest witnessing the hateful and discriminatory anti-Hellenic attitudes, that they are being exposed directly and publicly will help wake up those still in the Europhile stupor.

The easy answer would be that they are not opposing the money from EU (hence, want to be part of the euro zone), but they object the pressure they get from the countries (+IMF) that give the money. Or do these people really feel other EU countries should not send another euro to Greece?

I'm a bit surprised by how you say Greeks never really considered themselves part of Europe etc. At one point it was claimed here that Greece said it would be ludicrous Greece is not part of EU zone, because historically Greece could be considered the birthplace and hearth of Europe:

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(mythology]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(mythology[/url])

If it is really only the Greek elite who feel this way, how come the Greek majority has not voted the europhile elite out of the parliament?

I agree though that the blame should not be only to Greece, but also the international banks which have lent money to Greece without any good risk analysis. In my eyes Greece is a drug user and the German/UK/France banks are drug dealers. The drug user should be put into rehabilitation (under constant surveillance), or if he is unwilling for rehab, kicked out to the streets, and the drug dealers (and the countries who allowed them to act that way) should get a punishment in form of the risks becoming realized.

Of course it is not quite easy as that because of all the international problems that may cause, but in a way that would be more fair than many other options.

And as a member of a country which is using euro, I disagree that the currency decides which countries should participate and who should not in the PIIGS operations. Even though Finland happens to use the same currency as the PIIGS countries, it (or its banks) have less, if any, part in PIIGS problems, like that Finnish banks would have granted risky loans to them. Hence, something like UK should be much more attached to the operation than e.g. Finland, even though UK does not use euro.

The countries with the banks who have the biggest PIIGS risks should be the main contributors. They will be that anyway in case the PIIGS countries fall.

I want Greece only if they also want. I not, they can go anytime. I cannot understand why anybody would fear a truly independent and sovereign Hellas. There are enough third world countries in the world nobody is fearing or caring for. This may sound harsh...

No country should save another country. Bankruptcy happens. Banks giving credits to countries who can't afford them, and then another countries have to pay up?

Massive privatization, this is what Greece should do, even if it means 90% of country estate being sold.

Having stupid, leeching politicians should not be EU problem. Poland is going to sink soon, too. I don't want to be bailed out by other countries.

I want to see my country going down. Because stupid people voted again for the same govt. , who is expanding national debt and deficiency like no other in Polish history. And them are the first govt. elected again. Freakin irony.

Germany isn't in good sitiation either. On the one hand, it's possible that Germany will buy some estate in Greece, ok. But Germany pays alot of money to EU to support leeches like Spain or Poland. It's abnormal situation, and sooner or later EU will be done.

Countries already have no right to print their own money, only banks do. And with the Euro it's even less power to do what your country specifically needs to be done.

Greece has a small economy and look at the havoc its causing throughout the world. WHEN Italy's bond market crashes, imagine whats going to happen? Who's going to buy all those Italian bonds? Greece needs to refinance about 200 billion Euros. Italy will need to refinance about 1.4 Trillion Euros. The EU barely has enough money to temporarily rescue the smaller countries. French and German banks owns most of the Italian debt and when the Italian bond market crashes, these banks will get CRUSHED and will bring the entire EU economy down and probably the entire world. Thats why Sarkozy/Merkel are scared to death and have summits every other week. I'm afraid there is no easy solution. Things are going to get UGLY no matter what they do.