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shadowknight2814: I disagree, however, what I hate about it is what it did to the character of Batman. It was fine as an out-of-continuity story, but they've moved Batman to being more and more like TDKR, and now I can't stand the character. A power-tripping psycho committing an ACTUAL one-man war on crime is fine for a one-off tale, but not when it's the regular character in his ongoing series.... I've been wanting to try Batman for a while, but every book I've picked up has been from the post-Miller era, and every time he's portrayed as an unlikable psycho.
Have you ever read Matt Wagner's Batman and the Monster Men and Batman and the Mad Monk? I feel that those are a lot more mellow.

Though, since his creation, Batman has had a grim side, he was lightened up, but he's also become darker too. He's always been waging a one-man war on crime, and has always been somewhat apart from the other heroes, with his family (Batgirl, Robin, Gordon, ect.) keeping him from being the crazed psycho of Frank Miller (Frank Miller's work is in Earth-31, I believe, With Year One, All Star Batman and Robin, Batman/Spawn, The Dark Knight Returs and The Dark Knight Strikes Again all being in continuity with each other. The current Batman storyline going on is a replacement for Year One, but before it came about Year One was in continuity in Earth-1 and Earth-31). Frank Miller presented him as always being an unlikable psycho, and that this was a good thing, rather than that being the end result of things going wrong.
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shadowknight2814: I disagree, however, what I hate about it is what it did to the character of Batman. It was fine as an out-of-continuity story, but they've moved Batman to being more and more like TDKR, and now I can't stand the character. A power-tripping psycho committing an ACTUAL one-man war on crime is fine for a one-off tale, but not when it's the regular character in his ongoing series.... I've been wanting to try Batman for a while, but every book I've picked up has been from the post-Miller era, and every time he's portrayed as an unlikable psycho.
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doccarnby: Have you ever read Matt Wagner's Batman and the Monster Men and Batman and the Mad Monk? I feel that those are a lot more mellow.

Though, since his creation, Batman has had a grim side, he was lightened up, but he's also become darker too. He's always been waging a one-man war on crime, and has always been somewhat apart from the other heroes, with his family (Batgirl, Robin, Gordon, ect.) keeping him from being the crazed psycho of Frank Miller (Frank Miller's work is in Earth-31, I believe, With Year One, All Star Batman and Robin, Batman/Spawn, The Dark Knight Returs and The Dark Knight Strikes Again all being in continuity with each other. The current Batman storyline going on is a replacement for Year One, but before it came about Year One was in continuity in Earth-1 and Earth-31). Frank Miller presented him as always being an unlikable psycho, and that this was a good thing, rather than that being the end result of things going wrong.
In response to your other post:

Batman using a gun and killing someone cannot be worse than Catholic Wonder Woman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mPGQCu94-Lo&t=423

And Superman using this Abomination of a gun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=eTqH8pLE_RQ&t=323
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Elmofongo: In response to your other post:

Batman using a gun and killing someone cannot be worse than Catholic Wonder Woman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mPGQCu94-Lo&t=423

And Superman using this Abomination of a gun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=eTqH8pLE_RQ&t=323
Haha, AT4W is pretty great.
Just wanted to post this: Comic book superheroes unmasked.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdEP1_njs6w

I remember watching this years ago and amazed how far these characters lasted.
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Elmofongo: No joke when I was reading the comic, I actually thought the world was going to end in WW3 nuclear exchange, I am the athmosphere and the characters really made me thought the world ending to the point that I thought it was gonna happen in the end and I have a different ending in my head.

Also I like to ask, the Pirate comic within the story, how does it connect to the main plot, I try to piece it, but I never can.

And finally I like to ask what you thought what was the moral of the whole Watchmen Graphic Novel, everyone says its basically the deconstruction of the whole Superhero genre and mythos, but it seems more than that.
I've tried replying twice over the last couple of days and it wouldn't take my post... I'm going to sum up what I said, because I don't feel like retyping it all a third time:

1. Reading Wacthmen, even 20 times later, the feeling of doom is so strong despite knowing the ending, I STILL feel like the world is going to end towards the last couple of issues.
2. It was deconstruction, sure. It showed that even superheroes are still people. The characters are secretly gay, sexually repressed, forced into being a super hero by their mother, a disappointment to their father (Dreirburg), lonely, screwed up from childhood and their cases (Rorschach), sadists... Putting on a costumer doesn't make you instantly pure and noble, nor does it make you so. I guess it was about tearing down the perfect image of a superhero.
3. The book, to me, was about the realities sometimes mean superheroes beating up people with their fists doesn't solve anything. The answer was a superhero turning into a supervillian, essentially., tackling the big problem (essentially war/politics) instead of the smaller ones (street crime). To me, the book was also about lonliness. Every character, Manhatten, Night Owl, Rorschach, both Silk Spectres, even Ozymandias, were all lonely in their lives, sometimes by choice, sometimes not.
Post edited August 04, 2013 by shadowknight2814
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Elmofongo: All right the big one:

Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, is it still good and remember he written this book before he went insane.

Its only 4 books so ultimatly is it worth it?
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doccarnby: Holy shit, no. It's pretty fucking terrible. It was written before he obviously went insane, but it has every single problem people criticise his later works for is in here. He write characters wildly out of character, has an obvious hatred for certain characters, while at the same time obviously not getting what make those characters those characters. The art isn't particularly good, the pages are overcrowded with panels (a lot of them being taken up with news reports and interviews, most of which boil down to 'haha, these idiot liberals'), and the four stories never really mesh together (the Two-Face story is almost good, but falls so short). Also, in one scene Batman shoots a dude. Batman. Fucking shoots a dude. And later he has the gall to declare that guns are for the cowardly and people who follow in hos footsteps don't use guns (part of the 'wildly out of character' I noted above, but especially egregious, hence my singling it out here).

However, credit where credit is due, Carrie Kelly as Robin is good, and the scene near the beginning where Bruce Wayne catches the Zorro movie on TV is well done.

If you must read a Frank Miller Batman story, read Year One. It's not perfect, but it's a damn sight better than TDKR.
(Just for laughs)

Uhh Batman has used a gun before The Dark Knight Returns :

http://www.readdcentertainment.com/Batman-1940-2011-15/digital-comic/7541

http://www.readdcentertainment.com/Detective-Comics-1937-2011-575/digital-comic/13071
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doccarnby: Holy shit, no. It's pretty fucking terrible. It was written before he obviously went insane, but it has every single problem people criticise his later works for is in here. He write characters wildly out of character, has an obvious hatred for certain characters, while at the same time obviously not getting what make those characters those characters. The art isn't particularly good, the pages are overcrowded with panels (a lot of them being taken up with news reports and interviews, most of which boil down to 'haha, these idiot liberals'), and the four stories never really mesh together (the Two-Face story is almost good, but falls so short). Also, in one scene Batman shoots a dude. Batman. Fucking shoots a dude. And later he has the gall to declare that guns are for the cowardly and people who follow in hos footsteps don't use guns (part of the 'wildly out of character' I noted above, but especially egregious, hence my singling it out here).

However, credit where credit is due, Carrie Kelly as Robin is good, and the scene near the beginning where Bruce Wayne catches the Zorro movie on TV is well done.

If you must read a Frank Miller Batman story, read Year One. It's not perfect, but it's a damn sight better than TDKR.
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Elmofongo: (Just for laughs)

Uhh Batman has used a gun before The Dark Knight Returns :

http://www.readdcentertainment.com/Batman-1940-2011-15/digital-comic/7541

http://www.readdcentertainment.com/Detective-Comics-1937-2011-575/digital-comic/13071
Back in the Golden Age, he was practically OG at times: http://sacomics.blogspot.com/2005/08/batman-and-guns.html
Definitely watchmen, and I've heard great praise for Kingdom come from a friend.

I do like the new 52 wonder woman, but also the 2006-2011 issues.
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elendiel7: Definitely watchmen, and I've heard great praise for Kingdom come from a friend.

I do like the new 52 wonder woman, but also the 2006-2011 issues.
Have and read Watchmen already, one comic that caught my eye is Y the last man.
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Elmofongo: Have and read Watchmen already, one comic that caught my eye is Y the last man.
The premise seems quite interesting
Post edited August 30, 2013 by elendiel7
I haven't read comics in 15 years but I really loved Sandman, Fables, Hellraiser, Swamp Thing and Lucifer. Some other Vertigo stuff as well but I don't remember the names.

I did read some actual superhero stuff for a while, mostly Batman and JLA, but the Vertigo stuff is what I would actually call good and worth reading.
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StingingVelvet: I haven't read comics in 15 years but I really loved Sandman, Fables, Hellraiser, Swamp Thing and Lucifer. Some other Vertigo stuff as well but I don't remember the names.

I did read some actual superhero stuff for a while, mostly Batman and JLA, but the Vertigo stuff is what I would actually call good and worth reading.
So would you recommend Y the last man, its Vertigo and I have read Watchmen and V for Vendetta (though Alan Moore is great regardless)
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Elmofongo: So would you recommend Y the last man, its Vertigo and I have read Watchmen and V for Vendetta (though Alan Moore is great regardless)
I think Y the Last Man and 100 Bullets had just started when I quit comics for good. I liked them though, yes. I would bet they're good to the end.
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Elmofongo: No joke when I was reading the comic, I actually thought the world was going to end in WW3 nuclear exchange, I am the athmosphere and the characters really made me thought the world ending to the point that I thought it was gonna happen in the end and I have a different ending in my head.

Also I like to ask, the Pirate comic within the story, how does it connect to the main plot, I try to piece it, but I never can.

And finally I like to ask what you thought what was the moral of the whole Watchmen Graphic Novel, everyone says its basically the deconstruction of the whole Superhero genre and mythos, but it seems more than that.
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shadowknight2814: I've tried replying twice over the last couple of days and it wouldn't take my post... I'm going to sum up what I said, because I don't feel like retyping it all a third time:

1. Reading Wacthmen, even 20 times later, the feeling of doom is so strong despite knowing the ending, I STILL feel like the world is going to end towards the last couple of issues.
2. It was deconstruction, sure. It showed that even superheroes are still people. The characters are secretly gay, sexually repressed, forced into being a super hero by their mother, a disappointment to their father (Dreirburg), lonely, screwed up from childhood and their cases (Rorschach), sadists... Putting on a costumer doesn't make you instantly pure and noble, nor does it make you so. I guess it was about tearing down the perfect image of a superhero.
3. The book, to me, was about the realities sometimes mean superheroes beating up people with their fists doesn't solve anything. The answer was a superhero turning into a supervillian, essentially., tackling the big problem (essentially war/politics) instead of the smaller ones (street crime). To me, the book was also about lonliness. Every character, Manhatten, Night Owl, Rorschach, both Silk Spectres, even Ozymandias, were all lonely in their lives, sometimes by choice, sometimes not.
Hey I know the books should have been made because why, but are the Before Watchmen books any good?

Each books are dedicated entirely on each of the characters in their own sort of mini series so I just like to know which ones done good and which ones sucked?
Post edited August 18, 2013 by Elmofongo
Any Geoff Johns Green Lantern
Alan Moore Swamp Thing, Watchmen
Dark Knight Returns

Avoid Sandmqn. Overrated book by an overrated writer.