Because I sincerely thought he could be Jester. I'm new, not stupid. Unless there's something I don't know, lynching a person you believe to be a Jester is idiotic.

When I voted Orryyrro, still in RVS, He had no other votes, so how is this bandwagonning?
My return to Rob was the first vote after his claim.
Again, how is this bandwagonning?

This is the 3rd time I have been questioned with dubious claims.
Vitek did it & then retracted his claim (posts 177-180).
Twilight did the same (261 – 263)
Now you….

Sorry, I didn't pay enough attention to the order of the votes; I have just had to catch up with almost 300 posts!

Well, at this point that's all we got, little bits of information because gleaming anything off of the Fexen lynch is going to be tough. We're also on a time limit now and if we don't dig out SOMETHING, ANYTHING, we're going to lynch someone at the last minute and it's another free NK for the Mafia without anything to show for it.

All I can see that we have as clues to work with are, Nmillar hammering the lynch before fexen could have a chance to claim, Rodzaju's comment on fexen's theory and his attack on Rob's claim, Taleroth's play in day 1, and people pointing at Orryyrro.

Well, only way this is going forward is to start asking questions:

@Rodzaju: Why were you so heavily pushing against Rob's claim that he was a miller? What made him and his thoughts at the time seem suspicious?

@Nmillar: Why throw a vote out like that without much argument? I know we were close to our deadline at that point but we did have some time to make an argument about it.

@Taleroth: What about the Fexen vote did you disagree with?

I see bits and pieces for Orryyrro here and there, but trying to do a reread doesn't seem to get me anywhere for it, can someone explain this one a bit better for me?

Oh, and Unvote, that doesn't seem to be doing me any good right now.

I didn't realise at the time it was the hammer vote; we were running pretty short of time, so I just went with the consensus (yes, band wagoning).

I do find the fact you jumped on the vote at the end very scummy but can understand the fact of rl issues and the fact game 4 has taken a lot of time up.

I will reread the day one action sometime this weekend when i get a chance (BH weekend = tons of work :( ) to see who would likely commit the action but as it stands my fos is still on orry and teleroth who peoples jester paranoia probably saved him on the first day

This is the first time I'd even heard of a miller role.
I saw it as a convenient excuse for him showing mafia under investigation, much like my claim in game #4.

I still don't see the point of the role, except to diminish the power of a cop role.

Here's a thought.
What if mafia DIDN'T kill Rob?
Maybe they were roleblocked / Doctored / whatever & Rob was killed by someone else (possibly vigilante)...
It has been mentioned several times that it would be better for the town if Rob was Vig killed, rather than waste a vote.
I believe it was Jess who first suggested that he should be vig'ed.
She has repeated this a few times.

Having said that, I'm not convinced that the above scenario is accurate.
I don't see very much in Jess' play to suggest she is anything but town.
BUT she is very experienced player & has probably learned to look town, regardless of actual role. Just as she suggested Nmillar looks scum, even when town.
Which brings me to the only possible tell I've seen from her.
Way back in post 88, in response to my lack of suspects, she suggested Nmillar.
I can see nothing in the game to that point that singled Nmillar out as a suspect.

So, is Jess leading us to expect that Rob is to be Vig'ed to cover mafia hit?
And Jess, what made you suspicous of Nmillar so early on?

Sorry, forgot to add:
Vote Jesskitten

Hmm... At the risk of sounding slightly obsessive, I have come up with two further arguments towards Orryyrro being scum.

1) I can't help but feel the reasoning for his vote against Fexen (#227) is... well, fudged. It seems to me that it could be twisted into anything as required when questioned.

2) His line "Taleroth is Damnation in disguise" (#136). Now, I've been doing the research into previous GOG Mafia games for this reference, and it occurs to me that Damnation was a Town player who decided to vote against himself, for reasons which still elude me... This implies that you have knowledge on if Taleroth is in the same situation, which in turn indicates that you know the identities of the Mafia.

Therefore, once again,
Vote Orryyrro

I liked Fexen. Maybe I'm not reading posts in depth enough, but it seemed the lynchtrain started somewhere around him suggesting that a vigilante kill me because I might have been a Jester. An idea previously espoused around the talk that Robbeasy might be Jester. Seemed reasonable both times.

I'll have to go back over the posts. But I never quite caught the reasons so many started turning against him. I probably missed something.

Anything's possible. While this explains why the Mafia would night kill Rob, it would require phenomenal luck on the part of a Doctor or Roleblocker to prevent the Mafia's night kill. I'm not a fan of luck.

But, just for fun, what if there is no mafia? What if Bazilisek is screwing with us and its townies vs. neutral only? Heck, the game did start with Humpty Dumpty falling off a wall. Sounds like an accident to me.

Your post #88 gave me very worrying vibes because at that point, Nmillar had a vote on you, a formerly RVS vote from the first page that he turned into a "real" vote in #63 here:
Yet when you came on 7 posts later, you asked me and Robb why we found you scummy.
Notwithstanding the fact that as I pointed out. that was a dangerous comparison to make (because you were still alive in the other game and dropped hints from your statement here that you were Mafia there), I found it very interesting that nmillar had a vote on you at the point, yet was basically ignored. I didn't have a vote on you, I was voting Orry then, and while I disagreed with your view on Robb I explained later on in #75 that that in itself didn't constitute a reason for me to vote you.

But the question that came to mind was, why did you ask Robb (who was voting you) and me (who disagreed but wasn't voting you) why we found it scummy (which I did not), but not nmillar, who also disagreed AND was voting you? That's why I asked you what you thought of nmillar in #88, and your reply in #90 was that,
It seemed like you were trying to distance yourself from nmillar and not calling him out on his vote - not commenting on his vote on you at all, even though nmillar was voting you for accusing Robb, and in the first place his vote was an "Yeah, I agree with jess, and my vote's already on him so I'll leave it there to look like I'm scumhunting" one when there was no actual scumhunting in that post (#63, above). It's another one of those classic possible scumtells, Mafia A votes Mafia B to look like they're scumhunting, and B ignores A to try to make sure no pressure is applied on them if they get interrogated into a corner, and because B knows that A really knows he's scum anyway - they're partners! - but probably has no vested interest in lynching them.

So in conclusion the reason I queried you on him was that I wanted to see what your view on him was. I did not at all like your answer either, but there were bigger fish to paw at at the time.

---

For the rest of your post, why in the world would I as Mafia want Robb dead? I think Mafia would benefit much more by keeping Robb alive. I would certainly have kept him alive as long as possible as Mafia.

I don't think he was vigged, due to the lack of other nightkill, though who knows for sure. We may not even have one, though there are a couple semi-common roles that would be able to, so it was worth making sure they know that it had to be done at some point unless they were absolutely unwaveringly sure Robb was town. I don't think he should have been vigged on the very first night though, the point was to make sure he wasn't in lylo if the game reached that far, so town wouldn't have wifom from his claim hanging over everything he does.

But without proof to the contrary, that's a dangerous amount of wifom you're trying to throw out, because it looks like a normal NK. Sure it could have happened, and sure perhaps down the road if the doctor is alive and claims in endgame, the list of night actions may shed some light on that, but for now Occam's Razor says otherwise, speculation like that is firstly more likely to mislead town, and secondly isn't far off from trying to doctor-hunt, to make him unable to resist and come out to hint who s/he is and who s/he protected. Whoever the hypothetical doctor protected, odds that they guessed the correct NK target out of everyone available in the pool, coupled with the odds of having a vig who decided to pull the trigger that night, and the lack of any other actions, is rather small. Sure it's possible, but not really useful speculation at the moment because we have not seen anything that indicates such.

And secondly, I like how you start the post with, "I don't see very much in Jess' play to suggest she is anything but town." and then end up with justifying an actual vote anyway. Wait no, I don't like it, it's contradictory and you're saying that because I'm experienced, I'm likely scum even though I look town? Really? Not to mention you say there's only one possible tell (and then immediately list two) and somehow that's a stronger case than on everyone else.

Plus this is only my 4th game of Mafia - 3 on this site and 1 offsite. I've just read a bunch more too.

@ Jess:
My understanding of Nmillar’s vote was that it was RVS vote.
She just decided to leave it there until she had a solid suspect, which she did not at the time in question.

I never claimed you were more suspicious than anyone else. However, I did see a possibility (as described in my post) that you could be suspicious. My vote was more to get a reaction than an attempt to lynch you.

My speculation started from confusion over his death.
As you said, he was not an obvious target for mafia kill.
So, maybe they didn’t kill him.
I then came up with a scenario that fit this idea.
This then led to the Vig speculation, which led to you (as mentioned).
I then thought that, perhaps mafia killed him precisely BECAUSE he was an unlikely target, to sow confusion & misdirection.
Then I saw how the two theories dovetailed.

The tell I saw was:
“Way back in post 88, in response to my lack of suspects, she suggested Nmillar.
I can see nothing in the game to that point that singled Nmillar out as a suspect.”

The main point of my post was that you appear as town, but is this because you are town, or is it just that you have learned to look town.

The 2 questions at the end were intended as just that, questions.

Maybe I should reserve it for the RVS stage, huh? Because I want to own that.