Well, first off all

unvote Typhoon45

Explanation will follow.

I had a rather tough day at uni today, so my mind was not fully operational when I hit home and made my read of today and my post. Which means a lot of things were omitted from my mind (I tend to do that when I'm tired). So after rerearding the day, I realise my post (The post you refer to, jess), is devoid of logic. Especially considering certain things I really should have taken into context but for some reason didn't. Well, it's evident that if the mafia wanted pazzer gone, they would have struck pazzer and roleblocked Ubivis, the claimed doctor. Obviously an ensured kill is a fine trade-off for a chance of being discovered by the tracker, or at least I would say so. So why they didn't do so makes no sense. Therefore, I think the nightkill target is unknown, unless another doctor saved Ubivis (But we cannot know there is a doctor, now can we?). I further believe Typhoon's claim to being roleblocked, for as jess points out, claiming a null hit would be far easier.

So I am now of more certainty that Ubivis is mafia - as, yes, a doctor surviving for two days is a lot more suspicious than being roleblocked two nights in a row, especially when easier claims are possible.

Therefore, I agree with jess, Ubivis must certainly be scum.

vote Ubivis

Now, your direct points about the post, jess (Note - If you will say defense is scummy, I'll refer you to day 1 of mafia 3, just so you're prepared :p). Yeah, defending a post I made in a somewhat confused haze is not all that useful, but still, I suppose it should be done.
First off, I never said the mafia targeted pazzer, I said I assume the obvious case was true, nothing more. That you read into it that I say it is true seems to be over-analysing on your part. As I said, certain factors must be considered, and I realise that my message on this makes no sense, and I cannot truly explain it. So I do apologise about that.
You’re right, as I have said, and cannot really explain why, other than I was more inclined to focused on Typhoon claiming the same he did the day before. I was also taken in by the idea of no roleblocker existing (suppose I’m just a bit gullible at times :p) which added to my suspicion of Typhoon. My early vote was made because I thought it was well reasoned, it wasn’t.
Alright, I might just be a complete noob at this game, but how does not declaring someone town or scum amount to a scummy action? I can’t really see that, but I suppose it’s just me. And I threw suspicion onto Typhoon yes, I was convinced in my mindset then that he was lying. I am convinced now that he isn’t. And throwing suspicion on pazzer? If you understood the “I also think that pazzer's post requesting Ubivis to protect Typhoon is a bit fishy, if not scummy, but I'm convinced enough so far that he tells the truth.” As being me trying to make pazzer look suspicious, you’re misinterpreting me. I was merely stating that the action itself is scummy (Now I see it more as an attempt to draw fire from the mafia though). I never meant to say that I thought pazzer was scum, I do think he’s town.
Again, I never said I thought the mafia targeted pazzer, I said it was the most obvious case, based on what Ubivis said. (I could go on and on about how I dislike people putting words into my mouth as I get enough of that crap from my sister, but that doesn’t really belong here. And yes, you are putting words into my mouth by saying that I think the mafia targeted pazzer). But I generally think this point is where you get overly analytical. People are in different mindsets whenever they post. I was mindblasted at the time I posted this and have cleared up after some food and brainless activities (playing Dawn of War 2 for instance), take that as you will. The dirt you say I threw at him was just a statement, one which you seem to think I put more stock into (And others might too, unfortunately). But I have already said my peace on the statement, discussing it more will just be futile and overdoing it.
Now, as I’m not really a hardcore mafia player, I’m sure everything I have said here will be picked apart, overanalysed and thrown back at me as extreme scummy behaviour. Just do remember that the mindset I was in when I did the original post included that I was convinced Typhoon was lying and thus were more inclined to pick up on stuff against him. I’m not suspicious of Typhoon now, however, and I apologise for the way I acted towards him.

Also, sorry for the wall of text at the end :p

You're obviously scum because you're not playing your town meta - if you were town you'd have declared you were scum like in the other game!

Kidding :) (But that's why I hate meta arguments - not saying you did do that here, but bringing that up in general. Anyway.) Condolences on the tough day. Still a scummy read overall from that post, tough day or no, and I'll try to explain a couple things about it even while I acknowledge the tough day defence. But either way I'm hoping the power roles will clear up some truth.

Thanks for the post. I certainly do not think personal defence is scum - while those that give up and get lynched are town as often as they're scum, defending yourself (logically) is a towntell to me because that shows one is willing to fight to avoid a mislynch as town. Not that that will instantly negate and flip my scum/town read on them of course.

You're going to hate me for this, but a small scumtell I take from this too though is acquiescing to pressure too quickly, and playing the appeasement card by immediately backing down and apologising when someone attacks your position, when you were confident enough to vote him earlier. Now that being said I do apologise too even as town, usually only when I think I take an attack too far though. :P I stress it's a small scumtell to me, not necessarily to everyone. Besides, the other two on his wagon did come over right away you are scum (or even three).

I agree. You said you assumed that was the case. What I was trying to do was summarise your post into what you thought, so that is accurate. I didn't imply that it was a scumslip that you said they targetted pazzer, if that's what you mean (and re-reading that I still don't think that's what you meant either), but rather I was summarizing your thoughts in that post in those 4 lines, to try to get a "handle" on your viewpoint and where you were coming from, to craft the rest of the post.

Usually it's fence-sitting on a volatile issue, so that you can come down on the "more popular" side after and avoid suspicion that way. But I mainly brought that up because it seemed like a glaring omission, when put beside the fact that you were calling Typhoon out and voting him and also were pondering pazzer's alignment. Yet not Ubivis.

nmillar before you said he thought Ubivis was town, and Typhoon scum. Rob said he was unsure, but was leaning toward believing Ubivis, and leaning against Typhoon. Sure it casts suspicion on them from me because I disagree, but it's also a towntell because they didn't seem as concerned what others would think, but went with their conviction at the time, whereas yours seemed more like trying to "walk the middle ground" and tiptoe around one of the main suspects while at the same time declare someone else scum and attack him.

Nope, I'm fine with that explanation of that statement in particular. I was again mainly pointing out a combination I thought was scummy (the vote on Typhoon + what seemed like a small discredit vs pazzer), compared to the surprising omission of any mention of Ubivis' alignment.

I don't get what you mean by you didn't think the mafia targetted pazzer, but yet it was the most obvious case. I'm not sure how that differs from: I don't think I put words in your mouth, you thought that was the most likely case and that was the assumption when making your post. Didn't you? I believe that's what happened too. I'm confused as to where the misinterpretation here is. If you disagree, could you please state what you think I meant, and then what you actually meant? Thanks.

I think Ubivis is at L-1 now. I don't know if it's better to wait for him/others to comment or not.

---
Been 20 minutes, hopefully no merge.
My quote Got a line cut off. It should have said something like:
Besides, the other two on his wagon did come over really quickly as well. And I highly doubt all four of you are scum (or even three).

hmm, how much has happened through the night.

I can't see your point here jess, surviving after a soft claim and a full claim for two night makes me suspicious? I would agree, if I were in your position. As this would be the best way for the mafia to get rid of the powerful roles when they did not succeeded during the night.

I can only say, that I tried to protect pazzer, and there was no help needed from my side last night. This would tell me, that the Mafia tried to target someone else, or we have a still unknown role in our town, that might have totally prevented the lynch?

From what I can see at the moment is, that pazzar is cop, but not a vanilla cop, it seems to me that he is one of the kind, that investigations always turns out to me town.

The pressure you used to convince everyone to lynch the doc makes me just one, absolutely sure that you are mafia. for the moment, I have this scenario in my mind:

Scum: jesskitten (possible Godfather), Typhoon45, Damnation, eventually Robbeasy, but not sure about it)
Town: Pazzer, nmillar
the rest, absolutely unsure, but most likely town in my eyes.

jess is trying really hard to come up with suspects and putting a preassure on the lynch.
even if you all don't believe me, you will see when I got lynched, that you lost a very helpful special role here.

vote jesskitten

btw.: It was not me who started a bandwagon, and there even wasn't one yet. I just posted my thoughts and we had only 2 votes for typhoon (and I did not vote yet as well, as I was still not 100% sure, but am now), before jess came up to prevent going in this direction.

I agree with what you have said jess, and I am very tempted to throw down the final vote for Ubivis. However, growing up, I've learned to be careful around nice sounding rhetoric. Right now, the way you have pushed everyone towards voting Ubivis doesn't sit right with me. However, Ubivis surviving two nights in a row as a supposed Doc doesn't sit well with me either.

I choose to vote Ubivis but if he turns out to be town, I'm going to be very hard to sway when it comes to you pushing for a vote on Nazarush or Damnation.

But I’m not at L-1! Ubivis is! He will be the one to do this!
Yeah, I’m joking :p but serious, I just brought up the incident in mafia 3 as a joke, please don’t read more into that :p Meta-arguing is very difficult and would require extremely good skill at reading people through online text messages – which is next to impossible, making meta arguing a next to worthless argument based on the few games we have had :p Though they might give us minor insights to players’ play methods.
I wasn’t trying to convince you, one will still believe what one believes and I know I’m not a strong convincer (Now, being able to tempt people into decadence, now that I can, bwahahahahaha!). I’m just trying to provide you my perspective. If that convinces you or lessens my suspicious, great for me, if not, then at least my perspective was explained and that’s what I set out to do.
I’m not sure I had a position as such :p But I concur, quickly bowing down to the smallest pressure and then trying to make amends can be quite suspicious. I had, however, had quite a break (at least 5 hours or so) from the mafia game and came back with a fresher mind, your post merely made me read through my own multiple times to really understand what I was trying to say myself.
Alright, so it’s as I thought. I’ll sorta have to bring in some meta arguing on my behalf to explain this, so sorry about that. It might also get a bit philosophical along the way, so bear with me (Or don’t, and jump to the next quote :p).
First off, I’m considering myself part of the Black Metal subculture (Black Metal being a subgenre to Heavy Metal, and many of us consider us our own, separate subculture – it’s quite a long explanation why, so I won’t get into it here), and am, as such, an individualist – which, surprisingly, is one of the main themes in Black Metal music. With that in mind, realise that I play and act in my own way, even despite what is normal. In this case, the norm is apparently the use of “town” and “scum” to label people whom you are less suspicious off and people you are more suspicious off. Considering the nature of the mafia game, I at first used the method of just saying suspects were people apparently use scum, and refer to people I thought town as being someone I wasn’t very suspicious off. This is just how I play, and if that is commonly seen as suspicious behaviour, then it is fair that it gets flak – I am just informing that my play style is slightly different ;) This is not very evident in Mafia 3 – considering my day 1 lynch, but is quite visible in mafia 1, where I very, very rarely use the terms scum and town. I only use town in relation to myself, pretty much. This is because I consider the two terms extremes – scum being someone you have evidence against or is completely convinced is mafia, and town being someone you have absolutely no doubt is innocent and you just could not see being mafia. At least I hope this explains why there’s no mention of anyone being town or mafia in my post. Of course, I don’t mention what suspicions I have of Ubivis. I don’t do that because I wasn’t addressing my suspicions of Ubivis at all, I was addressing my suspicions of Typhoon alone.
Anyhow, onwards.
You’re right, it doesn’t. But it doesn’t say I think that they did target pazzer. The sentence you bring up is weird in its own and should have been better worded. What I am saying is that I give the scenario the benefit of the doubt, nothing more, but I am quite sure there might be another scenario that is more true. The scenario the sentence presents is one based on Ubivis telling the truth, which I have been convinced that he likely isn’t – there have been factors I should have thought off during my post, and not considering them is stupid. And actually, very stupid, but that’s an explanation for another time.

I believe the misunderstanding in general is that my post was poorly worded in some areas. One of the things I like to do is present alternate explanations, for many people seem to not present all possibilities, and end up convincing people of something that can very well turn out false. And that is what I fear is what is occurring most of the time. Someone present the theory they believe the most, and nothing else, and then other players tend to follow it because they have the theory in their heads. And a theory in one’s head that one knows has backing sounds more plausible than a completely new theory. It’s pretty much a creative vs critical topic and quite science philosophical in nature.
But in short – I just tend to present more ways than the ones commonly accepted, even if I don’t agree with them – pazzer lying being a theory seemingly less thought, and one I don’t agree with.

I hope this clarifies a bit, and if anything what I think the misunderstanding between us has been.

One more thing - the reason I'm worried about your words against me is that you have a lot of power, whether people would think so or not. Many at least follow some of your theories, so a calling for a lynch from you on me is quite worrying as many would be more inclined to do so. And considering that I know my own alignment as innocent, it'll only serve to help the mafia, which should be avoided, obviously :p

erm - we're done here aren't we?

I've got Ubivis at 5 votes, but my counting is notoriously poor.....someone else add em up!

I'm counting five too, so Ubivis should be lynched and we hit twilight. We'll just have to wait for Damuna to make it official.

On the off chance Ubivis reads through this, I'd like his reasoning for placing jesskitten as a suspect, actually, as I'm not very suspicious of her. I could inquire as to why he lists me, but I think jess pointed out good reason why I am suspicious (Now that felt odd, saying that :p), but he of course doesn't necessarily have to agree with her, so I would actually like an explanation to that too :p

Well at least it was a quick day. Hopefully pazzer (or typhoon) can clear someone else as town (or find a scum) and narrow down the list of potential suspects again. If nothing else, win by process of elimination.

@Damnation, fair enough. I am fairly certain of Ubivis from the happenings of the last two nights and from reading back on his posts, I am not at all certain of the rest of the reads, though I've put my suspicions out at least. I was, however, wrong on baz and Azarr. May still be wrong on Typhoon. Same for the other game. But I chase who I see as the most likely suspect until I see otherwise.

When the new day starts, depending on how Ubivis flips, and regardless if I'm around, could you list your list of reads on everyone and who you suspect the other 2 scum (3 on the very low chance he is town) are?

Well, I wasn't asked, but I figured I'd throw in my latest thoughts too:

Town: jesskitten, nmillar, pazzer

Leaning Town: Damnation, Robbeasy

Leaning Mafia: Enterprise2004, Nazarush, Typhoon45

Mafia: Ubivis

I'm going to hold off posting who I think is leaning town or mafia until we see which way Ubivis flipped.

Well, this is evidently subject to change should Ubivis flip town, but in my current mindset, where I think him mafia, I would say my main suspects would be Nazarush and Robbeasy. Who I am least suspicious of is pazzer, and to a smaller degree, Typhoon, enterprise and you, jesskitten.

Should Ubivis flip town, I will obviously need to rethink my entire suspect list (This is not something I have done, and I probably should do so during nighttime anyhow)

Hey guys, I have irrevocable proof Damuna is Mafia. It's obvious, she's the one killing us off and if you look at her postin-

Aw what do you mean I'm dead?

Dammit. *shuffles off stage*

Good luck town! Finish off them Mafia. :)

Time for Typhoon and pazzer to reveal the results of their night actions, I think ...

Agreed - at this delicate stage we shouldnt make any move until the power roles have told us their news - providing their not lying as well of course! Although it has to be said they're both looking a lot cleaner now Ubivis has been revealed as Scum.

You can see why Jess was so sure about Ubivis anyway - SHE was the Doctor! As soon as Ubivis claimed she must have known. Did very well to get the wagon on Ubivis without revealing she was Doc - then somehow Mafia nailed her anyway. I cant see anywhere where she let it slip, giving them any clues...