Heck, I hadn't even realised there was a forced-likeclaim-through-vote at stake. Pushed by CSPVG for the record. Well, I already said that I consider it bad play, and I already said for what reasons (post 155). By the way, I haven't seen any developped argumentation for, taking all aspects in account. I just saw some "it would be good", "it would be more good than bad" and "because we can". Which leaves a lot of the actual agenda and reflexions in the shadows.

Also, beyond a list of "for" and "against", I would be more interested (I give up on expecting actual justifications) by a list of individual judgements on who finds what stance "scummy" or "townish". Maybe I'll make the list myself, if no one feels like doing it inbetween. It's a bit of work, as sometimes it depends on subtle choices of words.

And yeah, Joe's resurrection is awaited. When do people's celebrations end ?

I agree with JMich's point in so much as witholding information is scummier than divulging. Also notice AGAIN people who talk about doing something and people who do something. How do they wish to appear? The reverse applies. Just because I say I want to keep info from scum doesn't make me town. If I divulge "last" am I more prone to be scum or town?

I find it somewhat disturbing that I seem to be the only person who has clearly stated to dislike mafia...

@MOD: Still waiting on some sort of feedback about what is being done about our no-show.

I admit defeat. You have bested me. I simply cannot muster enough care to give this post a reply as snide as it deserves. It may, in fact, be beyond my humble capabilities.

First, I love that you think that you have made some grand reveal, when it should have been painfully clear to anyone that my statement above was similar to how voting works. That was kind of why I mentioned that Mafia is a fame of tyranny of majority.
Second, the part you quoted above is neither an "argument" or an argument. Next time you attempt condescension, you might want to get the details correct. It makes the impact much greater.
Third, substituting one word for another does not an argument make. It's easy to make something look bad that way, but doesn't make it right. It's a horrible strawman, and you should feel bad for having made it.
Fourth, I note that you have still not given any good reason for why you believe sharing this information is a good idea, despite my asking for this. Are you incapable of providing such reasons?

3) People who do nothing, but still seem to be under impression that they do.

So? Why do you think so? Back up your belief that it will be helpful and a good idea with some reasons why.

I shall now quote something that I sent to none other than our Mod during #17, re: the lynchable mod:
"It wasn't something I had planned to happen, but I wasn't surprised. Once it was clear that the mod was a lynchable, killable entity, I knew it was bound to happen sooner or later. That's also why I wouldn't have made the mod a scum role. I figured it was likely you would all get together and lynch the mod because you /could/, not because it was a smart play. I like try to punish plays that are made only because of "why nots"."
Now, I don't mean to imply that Joe must follow the same beliefs that I do when it comes to game design and game moderation, but the point that "Because we can!" IS NOT A GOOD REASON stands.

I find that wording completely silly, and would like to have it changed to a no.

And you too, as you along with Jmich seems to be the most vocal proponents for a claim. Why is it a good idea?

I find the stances in themselves to be null-tells.

Damn tags.

the tyranny of the majority, you said?

and for why, I can see how the clues can help us find the killers, and we can therefore lynch them accordingly instead of the trying to sniff them out as usual, I see it as potentially faster and safer way to a win.

re. your worry whether people can be found out, granted it is possible to do so from the likes and dislikes, but surely not from the clues? The only thing they can help us do is to find the identity of the killers, so why not divulge the clues, at least.

You were asking whether people were for or against - I'm against. How? I really, really, really hope that Joe hasn't decided to take the essence of Mafia out of the game of Mafia. If it is like what you're suggesting (or at least what I take from your suggestion), I see it as a poorly designed game of mafia (but possibly a well designed logic puzzle). There is, I want to say no, but let's go with minuscule, a minuscule chance that revealing clues is good only for town. Assuming players follow the normal tropes, all townies will tell the truth about their clues. The mafia will not tell the truth, unless it benefits them. We will likely not have a good way to determine who is lying and who is telling the truth. The net result is mafia gains good information, while the town nets worse information.

Also, burden of proof.

Personally I consider the clues/dislike/likes Joe's attempt to make some worthwhile discussion on day one, thus I believe that those are not essential nor so important as to never reveal them, but instead I would assume some vague indication, where the clues was the most important part of the whole info only day one dump.

Thats the reason I shared mine, and the reason I wouldn't mind seeing other shares.

I have no idea how amok managed to interpret Zchinque's stance as any kind of yes. Since what we're voting on is whether we think it's a good idea or not, Zchinque saying he'll go along with it if the majority agrees is in no way a yes to the question of "is this a good idea or not?".

This kind of misrepresentation strikes me as an attempt to manipulate the situation. Because I feel like I'm being manipulated, I wish to state that I am against revealing this information for the time being, especially until I find out what amok was thinking.

Yay I can post finally! So here's the quick deal:

I'm replacing jaccobama. Joe will be back soon to give us a votecount. And we're going to have deadlines soon...but he didn't give me much specifics there. I am getting buried in snow and just came back from working in it, not gonna try to catch up today, tomorrow and over the weekend probably.

As I mentioned before (time and time again), time-limited information is the reason I believe it should be shared. But, as you say below, you don't think time-limited information is worth sharing.

But please, don't try to be polite. Be as snide as you wish to be.

then you should have said "no", not that you would if the others do. Probably just me, if people were doing something I do not agree with or do not like so strongly, then I would do as I feel best.

because they are clues to who the killers are?

according to this conversation, I do not think so :)

so why not go with that? and see where it takes us. It can be both. I expect the scum to lie on clues.

I do not see any information that can hurt town from the clues at all.... I can see it from likes/dislikes, yes, but not from clues. what have we got so far?

- a lovers quarrel
- 8 male 8 female
- the killer is female

tell me how this hurts town?

heh, because he did not say no, he said he would follow the tyranny of the majority. I took that as "yes, if forced to", not as a "no". sorry. Misunderstanding then. No one has actually come out and said, "no, I would not" yet. Maybe it is just me reading it wrong.

Belief is based on fact that if we can't discuss them after day 1 - making them somewhat pointless in my eyes. I find the fact you cant accept that this is a valid point somewhat perplexing. What would be wrong with -

'I can see the point, but still don't want to share my likes/dislikes'

This almost deliberate antagonism from your good self is making me very wary....

Ironically, I have the same issue with "I can't see the harm with...".

Also, deadlines would be unwelcome too soon after the end of year holidays. Many players have been too idle. I feel as if the game hadn't started for all, and starts only now.

Also, clues depend on what we share. Sharing clues while things are still open about likes/dislikes seems dangerous, as scum can adapt to it. I expect some clues to be about shared infos. I think that people who share clues should wonder first if they depend on claims or not. But clues that are neutral in that respect - that cannot be dodged by fake info claims - should be shared without hesitation.

I'm still unconvinced about full forced "like"-shares, but if this was to happen, I think it should take place chronologically before clues.