Don't worry, we love you.
It's just that you tend to come off a bit too strong at times and you kind of latch on and never let go. Which you seemed to be doing again with Telika (in my opinion) in the absence of Red_Baron. I'll agree that there was a lot of agreement between SPF and Telika, but I just don't see the conspiring winks like you do. That said, I am curious about Telika's recent questioning of flub since I can't make much sense of it. If P1na had stolen a toy train from a player, would he have dropped a train chimney or the whole train when visiting his next victim's room?

Normally, no. However, it's not so far fetched to assume that things I steal are meaningful. I might be able to only steal items with an smell, and Telika might be able to smell the scent of the item of any player visiting his room for instance. That would mean, if I were to trust Telika, that he smelled Camomile and lavender in his room last night. I take some camomile tea before going on my outings, and flub does whatever he does with her lavender water. This way Telika knows the player with lavender smell visited him, while I know that flub has lavender stuff. And we combine both, it would mean flub visited Telika, only he claims he didn't.

So according to this scenario, someone is lying. But then again, there's still so much open for interpretation here.

Yes, so, could you succintly, summarize your points ? So that we get them without having to fish them from your behemotic exchanges with red, and also so that we see clearly what you hold only after them ?

Or could someone ? Yes, I could do the whole work of going back and re-reading all the blocks I had skimmed through, but it annoys be to, and I don't trust it to be productive enough to invest the efforts in it (yes, my expectations are a bit a bit biased by what is said about me, but I would still like to be sure if there is something useful about red_baron), so, those who have the relevant points in head should be able to post them clearly in 5 minutes instead.

Is that so much of a problem ?

Or, Red_Baron, what were the points against you ?

See? That's something. Now I at least know why you consider it weak and we can all work with it.

But I wonder what you mean by mean coming off too strong. I made only few posts about Telika, where I explained why I think he is scum, and I voted him.
How is that strong and what would you expect else?
How else should we play this game? By doing nothing?
There are only 4 people currently voting and last vote before mine was 9!!! days ago. We won't achieve anything without making cases and voting people.
This way we will suddenly reach deadline, people will start panicking, suddenly they will be posting and feeling suspicion and someone will orchestrate mislynch.
(Btw. in that game Rod talked and I quoted his posts from there, it went this way, where literally hours and minutes before deadline he, as mafia, tried to orchestrate mislynch, it almost went through and he then lamented it didn'T and how people are scummy for not supporting it.)

It kinda would.
I could make it later, but I repeated it so many times you can't be surprised I feel reluctant about it.

You know, I decided early in this game to not put too much effort into it, to not be in the centre of attention as I usually am, keep out of long exchanges and just go with the game, see how town will fare without me (yes I feel that important :-)), playing my small game and enjoy it freely.
Yet know I am fighting against lynching someone just for policy for half of game, I am making cases, arguing with RB, I re-read this game, went through all SPF's posts twice to make some analysis of his play, checked G11 to see how Red_Baron played there in similar situation only to be told to fuck off with it, checked his other games briefly to see if it happened elsewhere too, now I went through G14 (one of the longest, if not THE longest game of all) to see Rod's and nmillar's interactions and to remind myself how painful it was. :-/
Don't dare to blame me for being lazy in this game when you admit you skipped half of the game!

Yes, with the current level of activity (nmillar hasn't posted in a week if I'm not mistaken) I do agree that a bandwagon starting a couple of hours before the deadline is a clear danger.

It just felt like your absolute certainty that Red_Baron is scum evolved into a certainty concerning Telika mostly because Red_Baron wasn't around to argue with anymore. It kind of escalated fast. I'm not saying you shouldn't do that or that it's hurts the game (it actually helps with the activity), but I can't see myself voting for Telika based solely on his interactions with SPF (correct me if that's not what you're arguing). Is there any other reason you suspect Telika and what do you think of his questions towards flub?

Oh, I wouldn't. Trust me that much.

While local stuff progressively dragged me away from the game, I especially skipped your big exchanges with Red, because their points seemed quite vague to me, and I thought that things would get clearer and more concrete when you'd have explained each others and came to either agreement or agreement to disagree on specific points. Then there's your "case" about me, giving me a clear idea on how and on what you build them ("spf didn't attack telika so lynch him" plus "telika was reluctant to allow zchinque to hammer and claim any random thing on next day, so lynch him" plus "oh he mentions the possibility that I could be using spf's behaviour on purpose, lynch him"), so yeah, I'm hardly motivated. I could rephrase it differently, though. Like : So, after all your exchanges with Red, what was the conclusion and why exactly ?

If you have clear elements, it shouldn't be much work. I say this by experience - repeating why I suspect Nmillar was easy.

Now if you really want work, you could metacheck the history of SPF, from the "buddying" perspective. Also, I'm not sure I get your recurring "since nmillar's claim". You mean that SPF was attacking me before ? And that siding with Nmillar after his claim (and his decision that it meant I am a murderer) wouldn't have been blatantly scummy ?

Should have done this as soon as I was up to date:
Vote Amok

This clears up some things for me. You've been bugging me for a big part of the past few days. (Hard to type so drunk right now).

So with thathout of the way, I have a big problem wiht CSPVG constant refering to his maybe my results are not accurate. I feell like I'm beeing played by some kind ogf flaveor cop of some such. And another thing is JMICH, crap. He's as quiest as a churhcm mouse utinil you mentioun his name and then he opops out of the woodworink. How about that??

Thouse two make me have the nerves..

Itype for shit..

New Apple product?

This is written in order of reading, thus things might change as I read on and comment. Darn you've been busy posting. More interesting stuff is in the bottom, as it is recent :)

It might be a bit excessive, but looking through the posts you linked they are not all him hunting amok - which skews the pure outlook of it. Still I must agree with you that he have been hunting him, though in my mind a lot less than I have, and as already said I have seen and Rodzaju made a mention of this as well, that hunting each other does not equal that they can't both be scum, even more so considering Amok's actions. Still several of the posts are fairly direct which does paint that he wants to lynch him. However I still can't shake the notion that Amok should be lynched. That he never said anything about Telika, well I had the idea that Telika was town for most of the game and as such I guess you will only find recent posts that mentions him in another connection, still given his confirmed scum status it is worth noting.

While the first two of those posts relate to mod killing and as such I consider them perfectly fine posts to argue no matter his alignment, the latter is interesting since SPF was voting for nmillar at that point - So yea, I agree a scum can have an agenda that would also make him interested in avoiding a no-lynch, but the problem is that scum knows who is town, we don't. A no-lynch in my mind is not a preferred scenario as it just ensures scum victory.

Haha :D Brilliant - though not the point. I am not trying to get him inside, I want to shoot him and discover if he is actually a wolf. Glad to see Rodzaju is picking up on this, though given that he replaced Twilightbard to my knowledge? I am not entirely certain what to make of it.
But in regard to the other points, I don't argue that I am the only scum hunting, I argue that there is several people in the game who is taking very little part in the action while still seemingly being part of the game, it includes lurkers (JMich lurking however deserve some notice) though I am considering those active much more, I am referring to how situations and agreements from the day before have little influence on the next day. How arguments, such as the one you yourself made about who would be the usual to lynch given an accusation, had no effect on who you voted for (the P/F debate) and so forth. Still I am not by any means the sole hunter and I've seen plenty from others as well. Still I have played fairly obsessively because I still want Amok lynched and I still have certain targets lined up, however you should also have taken notice as to how those targets have changed. nmillar was on my list, but isn't anymore - Telika was a certain town, but have lessened somewhat, Darko have been changing around as well. However looking at others I have seen little to no reaction in that regard to change opinion, so while I might be "obsessed with certain people" that obsession at least changes when they show difference.

Answer in progress :P But glad to see that you also agree with the notion that very little can be gained from such tells, which is why I basically ignore them myself and only go with actions.
Oh and let me repeat your splendid question since amok never answered: Why are you voting me again?

What?? You want to lynch nmillar, because you believe he is town and this want to confirm it?? That makes no sense and is even worse considering that if you believe his claim then you also believe he is a power-role.

That right there earns you a perfect scum point. And uhh Vitek is agreeing with me on that.. or rather given that he already had posted this and I am posting now, I guess I am agreeing with Vitek. Anyway that right there is JMich on my scum list.

Could we get the results from the nights you had or didn't you get anything? I am a bit uncertain as to what you meant. (And you might already have posted them, in which case ignore this).
But this amount of cops is a bit too much, so now I'll have to make my mind up about this. We had amok claiming some sort of cop, only to be lying, we have CSVPG claimed cop, with useless results that tell little and we have a thief kinda cop… logically thief would make a better scum role, but heck I have no clue - I would be more tempted to lynch CSPVG of the two, assuming the results P1na get is actually useful thus making him more ideal to survive in the event that both are truthful. Still waiting for results, and further reading for that.

--- More coming ---

10 minutes have passed, so this should not merge..

I've been trying to get him and others voting for me to do that for a while. With the exception of flubbuckets failed attempt, none of them have. So here is to hoping that it has occurred after these posts.


Hmm a jar of talcum and confirmed by Telika. Could we get to know the other item? And yes, I also have a specific Item stated in my role Pm so I would say that P1na can be easily confirmed for his role if it comes to that. Hence I am still leaning towards CSPVG being the most likely fake cop in this scenario. EDIT: Just noticed that flubbucket was apparently the other target, and confirmed. So we have a confirmed flavor cop - wonder if that can be used to confirm Darko? Since he leaves P1na might still be able to still thus making that action void. My mentioned item sounds like it could have potential use and that it would be a real bother for me not to have them.

Haha :D Yea, still same as before - while I am certain scum is making use of those ingrained tendencies to avoid no-lynch and to lynch liars I still hold by that Town does not lie and that lynches are required for town to win, even if it also causes us to fail if lead by scum. I am beginning to see why you are after me though, which is great since that is pretty much the first time in the entire game :P Also great to see that you have finally begun considering other players enough to vote for them.

I got the notion that you used the products you stolen, hence the lavender smell, but given that we need another night to confirm that, we should perhaps be careful as to conclude that flubbucket is lying, for one I don't know if it is normal for lynchers to have more roles?

Ah yes, might be because you still haven't answered Darko's question... and again, points as to why I want you lynched.

Oh I agree. Glad to see that you have begun doing that after +1200 posts ;) That said, you are likely also one of the most active, which is why I am still not sure where to place you :) Still you haven't actually specifically stated why you find me suspect, you have only alluded to it.


Ah anyway, caught back up. Conclusion, I am still perfectly willing to lynch Amok - however present preferences would be JMich (lynch those he believe town to confirm it) or CSPVG (a useless cop? A jailer and a flavor cop?).

I am not voting Telika, I still mostly convinced he is town.
I am not voting Vitek, because I am more arguing against his belief of me, than me considering him scum (hence Telika my biggest beef against him is that part, since it has caused him to look at little else from what we can see in posts, even if he have checked).
I am not voting nmillar, as I believe him to be the jailer. That he might be a mafia jailer is another matter which I can get a grip on for now anyway.
I am not voting Darko, we need more info and other than not seeking a response to his question for amok I have not really seen much odd behaviour.
I am not voting Rodzaju, I need to get a better understanding of him, yet he is not in the clear given him being TB earlier :P Also I been considering the scum team size myself, but as Joe said he just added Zchinque at last moment and that we have/had at least two neutrals in the game, I am not certain what to think.

unvote until I make my mind up about those 3.

And yea, I'll avoid walls, just needed to catch up.

And I thought I was the one with the headache and the fever.

Ok, let's explain (again) the reasoning for me be willing to lynch nmillar. nmillar has claimed jailer, and for reasons mentioned by Telika on day 2, I do believe that he is a jailer. If he is a mafia or town jailer, that remains to be seen. Quite likely a townie though.
If he is town, that means that he couldn't jail Darko last night. Case 1, darko is indeed a commuter. Immune to night kills then, and possibly game winner for town. If darko isn't a commuter, then he most likely is a strongman.
A cop (or a watcher, or a doctor, or a tracker) should be able to target (and get results) on a strongman, but not on a commuter. If they get results on darko, it means that darko is not a commuter. I do have my doubts on whether his ability provides immunity to P1na's ability, but that remains to be seen.

So, I hope tomorrow we'll have CSPVG (or someone else) able to claim "Yes, I targeted darko, and I couldn't find him" or "Yes, I targeted darko and I got this result back". Then we have the situation described in post 1174. If we already know nmillar's affiliation with certainty, we should be able to better judge tonight's results (assuming at least one PR decides to target darko and shares said info tomorrow).

Is nmillar the best candidate for a lynch? Not sure. He is a claimed PR who survived a night after he claimed (just like CSPVG), and his role is a powerful one, assuming he can choose a proper target. So the reason I would agree to a nmillar lynch is for the information gain, unless of course someone can make a better case.

Off to find some aspirins.