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General discussion (archive)GOG Mafia #17 - Asylum Mafia(688 posts)(688 posts)
(688 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted September 12, 2013
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CSPVG: Wait a second.

Unvote: GhostQlyph[

You're still my chief suspect, Ghost, but I think it would probably be good to wait until at least Sunday to lynch someone.

Why I'd like to hold up, is that I'm a little bit confused. If Constable Bastian is the only policeman in Cadamom, then could I be our only true policeman? I need to think this through more thoroughly, but I fear the only way we could know for sure( at this stage, at least) is if we lynched GhostQlyph.
How would it be possible without Ghost lying about her role?
Either she is not untargetable or you are not any sort of cop.
Posted September 12, 2013
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CSPVG: Wait a second.

Unvote: GhostQlyph[

You're still my chief suspect, Ghost, but I think it would probably be good to wait until at least Sunday to lynch someone.

Why I'd like to hold up, is that I'm a little bit confused. If Constable Bastian is the only policeman in Cadamom, then could I be our only true policeman? I need to think this through more thoroughly, but I fear the only way we could know for sure( at this stage, at least) is if we lynched GhostQlyph.
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Vitek: How would it be possible without Ghost lying about her role?
Either she is not untargetable or you are not any sort of cop.
Or Zchinque screwed up my role (or worse, and I feel like this is the case more and more, gave me a role PM with incorrect info).

At this stage I've turned to apathy. This game is just jerkish. I don't even care anymore if I'm lynched or not. I really think Zchinque should have thought this through a bit more if it was a lying role PM. I suppose I can't blame him if it was a mistake, but either way I can't be arsed caring much anymore.

I'm still pushing for Amok and Vitek. But hell, now that my role PM seems to have been trash I don't even think it matters. I'm going to be lynched most likely, because I have proof that says my correct claim is fake and what the hell can I do about it but point at Zchinque? That doesn't help my case at all. Whatever.
Posted September 12, 2013
Some... interesting claims going on here.

My thoughts on the "more scum than at the beginning" thing is that we started with less than the usual number of scum, maybe even one. We definitely have less than 5 because otherwise the game would be over, and it seems like it'd be hopelessly unbalanced if there could be 4 scum on the second day so I'm guessing we have 2 or 3 at the moment.

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Vitek: Were you Jester since start of game, only unable to win on Day 1 or did you become one?

(Small note: If you are town aligned, it would be more helpful if you claimed jester and ask us to lynch you. It would save us time.)

I don't want to got his route. Mod is only thing in game providing info we can just accept in game and if we really couldn't trust mod and doubted even flips and such, it would make the game almost unplayable.
Since the start of day 2. Anyone remember me saying something strange happened to me this morning?

The problem about claiming town jester is that it sounds very much like the falseclaim of a neutral game ending jester. There is no advantage to the town in general in lynching a jester. It satisfies my win condition, but it makes no difference to you guys. Not only that, but I do count towards the town numbers (in terms of outnumbering the mafia). "I don't die the first time I'm lynched" could still have been a lie even if you believed I was a town aligned jester, thus lynching me would still be a bad idea. I really can't think of a time when claiming jester is a good idea for a jester.


@GhostQlyph: Has Zchinque told you that it was "all in your head" or is this just your interpretation upon re-reading your PM?
Posted September 12, 2013
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SirPrimalform: Some... interesting claims going on here.

My thoughts on the "more scum than at the beginning" thing is that we started with less than the usual number of scum, maybe even one. We definitely have less than 5 because otherwise the game would be over, and it seems like it'd be hopelessly unbalanced if there could be 4 scum on the second day so I'm guessing we have 2 or 3 at the moment.

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Vitek: Were you Jester since start of game, only unable to win on Day 1 or did you become one?

(Small note: If you are town aligned, it would be more helpful if you claimed jester and ask us to lynch you. It would save us time.)

I don't want to got his route. Mod is only thing in game providing info we can just accept in game and if we really couldn't trust mod and doubted even flips and such, it would make the game almost unplayable.
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SirPrimalform: Since the start of day 2. Anyone remember me saying something strange happened to me this morning?

The problem about claiming town jester is that it sounds very much like the falseclaim of a neutral game ending jester. There is no advantage to the town in general in lynching a jester. It satisfies my win condition, but it makes no difference to you guys. Not only that, but I do count towards the town numbers (in terms of outnumbering the mafia). "I don't die the first time I'm lynched" could still have been a lie even if you believed I was a town aligned jester, thus lynching me would still be a bad idea. I really can't think of a time when claiming jester is a good idea for a jester.

@GhostQlyph: Has Zchinque told you that it was "all in your head" or is this just your interpretation upon re-reading your PM?
The latter. Hiding in my head from the external world isn't a viable way to be immune to a knife in the back, and that's the explanation I'm given.

Combine that with CSPVG being able to investigate me (no comment on the naive thing, that's unprovable until he gets a town result and it comes back mafia) and I'm pretty sure it's a false role.
Posted September 12, 2013
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GhostQlyph: The latter. Hiding in my head from the external world isn't a viable way to be immune to a knife in the back, and that's the explanation I'm given.

Combine that with CSPVG being able to investigate me (no comment on the naive thing, that's unprovable until he gets a town result and it comes back mafia) and I'm pretty sure it's a false role.
It's depends on how you think about the way a naive cop works, but it's possible that because a naive cop's results are fixed he didn't need to be able to target you in order to get a result.
Posted September 13, 2013
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GhostQlyph: The latter. Hiding in my head from the external world isn't a viable way to be immune to a knife in the back, and that's the explanation I'm given.

Combine that with CSPVG being able to investigate me (no comment on the naive thing, that's unprovable until he gets a town result and it comes back mafia) and I'm pretty sure it's a false role.
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SirPrimalform: It's depends on how you think about the way a naive cop works, but it's possible that because a naive cop's results are fixed he didn't need to be able to target you in order to get a result.
Yes.

I'm discarding it because his argument for his knowledge that he's naive is based entirely on his own scumreads. There's no conclusive proof for or against.
Posted September 13, 2013
Ok. I've reread Day 1 far more then I'd like to admit even under normal circumstances. I still feel like I'm missing something. I saw a lot of Ghost saying that amok had attempted to use her 'Post Restriction' as a reason for voting her and pushing her forward...EXCEPT, the only time I noticed amok even hint at voting for Ghost, it was due to the lynch the mod view people were having, while CSPVG not only voted for Ghost for that very reason, but made another vote about keeping his vote there. Did I miss other posts? I kinda feel like I have, but I'm not really sure.

@Vitek: What I mean is the post you made when you first came in here, about Z's lynch in Day 1. It just really struck me as odd. But it's the only thing I've really got, and I've got odd from a lot of people in this game.
Posted September 13, 2013
Hmm... The problem I'm thinking here is that Untargetable would be an unbelievably risky choice for a falseclaim, given the fact that it's so incredibly easy to disprove. I'm not terribly sure if I can get the MafiaScum wiki at work, due to an overzealous firewall, but there's an article on night action resolution order I seem to remember - actions could be redirected, but is a redirection allowed to override Untargetable?

Not that Untargetable makes it any more of a guarantee of the Town having a fighting chance, I fear - alas, it only allows the game to come to a tie if Ghost and a single Mafia player were to be left. It merely means that from now on the Mafia are more likely to nightkill other people.

The possibility of a fake night action being used to get rid of the inconvenience of an untargetable opponent is kind of making me suspect CSPVG after his unusual "guaranteed lying, no wait let's leap off again" move. For the moment - Vote CSPVG. Then again, I think we're getting to the stage where it's difficult to be certain of anything.

I'm sure there's something I've missed.
Posted September 13, 2013
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QuadrAlien: Hmm... The problem I'm thinking here is that Untargetable would be an unbelievably risky choice for a falseclaim, given the fact that it's so incredibly easy to disprove. I'm not terribly sure if I can get the MafiaScum wiki at work, due to an overzealous firewall, but there's an article on night action resolution order I seem to remember - actions could be redirected, but is a redirection allowed to override Untargetable?

Not that Untargetable makes it any more of a guarantee of the Town having a fighting chance, I fear - alas, it only allows the game to come to a tie if Ghost and a single Mafia player were to be left. It merely means that from now on the Mafia are more likely to nightkill other people.

The possibility of a fake night action being used to get rid of the inconvenience of an untargetable opponent is kind of making me suspect CSPVG after his unusual "guaranteed lying, no wait let's leap off again" move. For the moment - Vote CSPVG. Then again, I think we're getting to the stage where it's difficult to be certain of anything.

I'm sure there's something I've missed.
They don't have page for Untargetable on mafiascum, but there is one for Commuter, which basically is untargetable townie:


The Commuter is a role that "leaves Town" each Night, thus making them ineligible to be targeted by Night actions. By extension, they cannot use any Night actions they may have.

Because they cannot use Night actions, almost all Commuters are pro-Town.

It is worth noting that because in flavor it physically leaves the game for the Night instead of being protected somewhere in Town, Commuter is considered the ultimate in Untargetability, trumping even things like Strongman.

Most Commuters cannot Commute each Night. Instead, they generally have Odd-Night or Even-Night modifiers attached.
Alternatively, they may be X-Shot and need to choose if they want to Commute each Night.

Commuter blends all the strongest aspects of Bulletproof and Ascetic. It is futile to target them at all while they commute. However, the only roles that may be helpful if they targeted the Commuter are investigative, so in all other cases, Commuter is strong and difficult to use improperly.

Commuter is not an implausible scum fakeclaim, as it explains immunity to kills and (occasionally) blocked actions. If you are an X-Shot Commuter, keep this in mind.


I don't think CSPVG's claim doesn't make much sense if he is scum. He would expose himself too much and I think it would be unnecessary at the moment he did it.
Posted September 13, 2013
I just read the description of "Naive cop" on the forum - "Naive Cop: Results are always indicative of Town". Does this mean that a naive cop investigating someone will always be told that the person s/he is investigating is town, or town friendly, not mater which fraction they really belong to? They will just now whether the person is doing a night action or not?
Posted September 13, 2013
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amok: Does this mean that a naive cop investigating someone will always be told that the person s/he is investigating is town, or town friendly, not mater which fraction they really belong to?
That's correct.
Even if the copped person claimed before to be scum, naive cop would still get "town" result.


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amok: They will just now whether the person is doing a night action or not?
No, they don't even have this benefit.
Only tracker can directly see what person did at night.

They are basically not power role, they are negative role. They usually exist to mislead town, not to help it.
Posted September 13, 2013
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amok: Does this mean that a naive cop investigating someone will always be told that the person s/he is investigating is town, or town friendly, not mater which fraction they really belong to?
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Vitek: That's correct.
Even if the copped person claimed before to be scum, naive cop would still get "town" result.

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amok: They will just now whether the person is doing a night action or not?
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Vitek: No, they don't even have this benefit.
Only tracker can directly see what person did at night.

They are basically not power role, they are negative role. They usually exist to mislead town, not to help it.
Cheers. That cleared it up a bit for me, at least. I guess I will stick with my vote.
Posted September 13, 2013
Well, I'm officially confused. I got another message from Ensemble a little while back. I'm gonna message Z though before I do anything with this though.
Posted September 13, 2013
I like grease a lot. It is slippery and it makes things squeak less. I don't like squeaking things, because they tend to distract me while I am trying to think. Thinking is hard enough these days...

Well, okay, as for the claims by GhostQlyph and CSPVG, I don't think they have to be mutually exclusive by any means. I put myself in the position of a moderator that has a naive cop ask to target an untargettable player. I think I might have just returned 'GhostQlyph is Town' to CSPVG as well. It just seems to be more in line with the way a naive cop is supposed to be broken and not deliver and real information.
Posted September 14, 2013
So, we have an untargettable townie who has been targetted for a night action, and a second town cop who believes he is naive. Seems like someone is pulling our legs here.

So the question now becomes, is GhostQlyph lying about her role, or is CSPVG getting the same result even if he targets a non-existing target, like Zchinque?
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)GOG Mafia #17 - Asylum Mafia(688 posts)(688 posts)
(688 posts)