NotFrenchYet and Red_Baron are both mafia. Everyone else is perfectly comfortable discussing theories about multiple mafia, but these two have consistently tried to shut these discussions down.

NotFrenchYet has been very vocal in her opposition to discussing these theories throughout the game.

Red_Baron claimed the kill on night 2, and I now believe this was his attempt to shut down the multiple mafia theory as the night kill flavour was very different from the Shattered Hand one on Night 1.

Who has the most to gain from dismissing a multiple mafia theory? Members of a faction that haven't been revealed in the flavour.

Scum: NotFrenchYet, Red_Baron

Leaning Scum: Orryyrro, SirPrimalForm

Neutral:Cruward_Darkeyes, Robbeasy, TwilightBard, Zchinque

Leaning Town: Bazilisek, jefequeso

Town: Damnation

Lower case f!

Since you suspect Red_Baron, what are your current thoughts on the quote/paraphrase thing? Reading your post got me thinking about it again, and I'm still really not happy about it. I just went back and compared the flavour from the start of the day with what Red_Baron posted and I can't find anything wrong, but I still don't believe him.

I don't believe a word of it; he simply adapted the information from the night kill flavour to create his mock PM. He was under no pressure when he "paraphrased the PM" - he simply wanted to dismiss the multiple mafia theory because he's a member of The Black Vipers or Los Meutra.

You're making an exalent point of failure.. but hey I know thats your style to stick with someone until the end. So let me just point it out for you and you can re-consider your reasons again:

I have been against discussing multiple mafia's as it makes no difference, however I have also suggested that the no nightkill might be due to multiple mafias having a kill each, with a break or something in between or other actions. My revelation of the kill doesn't block anything about multiple mafia and would make no sense to claim as a mafia even if that was the case. Was NFY against multiplemafia? Can't remember if or not.

But point being: I don't really care to consider it, since for town we have one goal: finding scum. Only the mafia would have an interest in finding out if there was another mafia to compete with. Of course it might give us the possibility to believe that scum might have a doc or a cop, if there is indeed more than one. But it still doesn't make a damn difference to town. We have one goal and one goal only: FIND SCUM. I don't care if I have to reveal might night action to help town, I don't care if it puts attention on me, if at the same time town learns something and other townies will think extra about their actions.

Discussing multiple mafias is a pointless waste of time. But lets for the sake of getting rid of this discussion say that there is more than one mafia. Good? It gained us? Nothing. Great.. lets move on to finding those suspicious. Right now, I am going to have to say that I do find you creeping up my list nmillar, for your insistence to discuss the subject of extreme WIFOM and using it as the sole argument for why I am scum.

And your argument for multiple mafia's and my reason to claim the kill is that the night kill flavor was very different than the one earlier and NOTICE THIS: No mention of the other gang names was present. Which all in all only support that this was indeed not a kill by a gang, as I am aware that you know about gang's tendency to leave proof that they committed the crime, which is something this game apparently follows shown from the earlier nightkill.

So now, could we please get on with the important stuff? Like say.. finding scum??

But yea: leaning scum: nmillar (even if I know that you tend to stick with one theory, this is a bit too far fetched for my taste).

Damnation has also been against discussing multiple mafias, yet you place him as town?? I see that you follow your own words to the exact letter.. no wait.. you don't! If you want I can even quote the post against it.

So yea, I did also paraphrase my pm, to further close discussions if I killed him and how, didn't really work as intended though. Happy however that it seems that most of this who have already been discussed has changed the mind of some.

Now SirPrimalform, why do suspect me? Is it due to me claiming the kill? Have you come up with any reason as to why I should claim it if I was scum? Have you understood the reason as to why I claimed it?

You really believe the moderator would make things that easy? Perhaps the mafia in question doesn't have a signature kill? The only reason The Shattered Hand has one is because their name implies it!

Again, you're trying to dismiss anything that doesn't agree with your viewpoint. Trying to figure out possible scenarios is part of the way I play, and based on events so far and the opening flavour that mentions four mafia factions (two of which have already been proven to exist) leads me straight to the multiple mafia scenario.

You, NFY, Bazilisek and TB have all been guilty of attempting to shut down discussions about multiple mafias, and I have to wonder why that is ... I don't recall Damnation being as dismissive, so please quote it, as I haven't been able to find it.

I must say, this somewhat worries me - we do not know his list of four was a definate lie. I agree with your stance that we must look upon all Rod has said with great doubt, but saying something is 100% untrue is not something you can do. Why? Simple, IT HAS NEVER BEEN DISPROVEN!

And don't fling the flavour at me, I've read it and it makes no such statement that he had no list of more than two. It said he had two listed, nothing else.

Why do I take this up? Because what you're actually doing is claiming ViolatorX is a poor mod - denying or confirming that Rod had more than two in any way would be handing out information for no reason - had ViolatorX confirmed Rod had a list of 4, people would be instantly aware there were two other power roles out there with negative modifiers. By denying it, ViolatorX would be influencing theories of how many power roles there are and if they hold any modifiers.
The list was NEVER DISPROVEN so do not say it was!

Now... Onto something else. I'm slightly interested in the whole ordeal with Robb, but it seems to have subsided greatly, I was hoping more would have come of it.

Then there's TB who has come up quite a lot lately, in contrast to his previous involvement - I assume you have more time on your hands now?

I feel I have too much to comment on, and I'm feeling quite confused at the moment, so I'll jump to another irk of mine, then respond to Red_Baron's parculiar retort to nmillar.

The usage of the phrase "it is our job as town to hunt scum" or deviations thereof. This annoys me a LOT. Yes, it's true, I'm not arguing that, but it has been mentioned so fucking much in this game, and the most interesting part is - it seems to pop up mostly when people wish to end discussions.
Here's why I think discussions of multiple mafia and potential night action scenarios CAN be useful. I, myself, find them mostly time consuming, but they can be informative - they help you paint a picture of how the player is, how he reacts and what he thinks. If someone has discussed possibly night action scenarios, and his theory is later discovered to be true, how would most of you react? With great suspecion, I'm sure. So what does it ultimately do? Help us find scum, really.
The same for multiple mafia, and unlike Red_Baron says, I'm not really against talking about it, I just do not believe in it (Remember, besides poking the hornet's nest, I also like to present multiple theories, because they are ALL possible in one way or the other!)

This brings me to Red_Baron's post #1099.

Notice the tone he takes. He seems aggravated, annoyed even. Kinda desperate for getting the entire discussion about mutliple mafia gone. See what I said about these discussions? They can be lucretive, and Red_Baron's post made me highly suspecious of him - ESPECIALLY since he keeps mentioning "We must hunt scum, not discuss useless theories" (Paraphrased, don't kill me!), the post seems so emotional it appears to me like nmillar hit the entire situation spot on...
EVERY discussion allows for slips, and EVERY slip allows for town to hunt scum that much more effectively - always remember that when you attempt to stop discussions simply because you find them inconvinient. You desire to stop them might just be the slip everyone is waiting for.

unvote
vote Red_Baron


If this sounds confusing in anyway, please tell me and I will try to elaborate :p (I do feel slightly confused right now)

Or it could be because I am getting slightly tired of arguing the same thing over and over of which I tried to help with, but instead (and yea I expected it to some degree) got a lot of flack for, before finally some started realizing he might be telling the truth.

Now it returns again in the form of nmillars good and tried idea about multiple mafias, being that it could be a proof for them that I claimed the kill.. Now that is what gets me emotional, since it should be pretty damn clear that following the flavor this kill was clearly not done by a gang and as such would make no sense for me to claim in order to hide gang involvement.

So yea, wanted to end that discussion as I feel its been brought up way too much without ever gaining us anything.

Just noticed nmillar's post, yea I see were your going with this - true that it might be harder to make a signature kill for the other ones. But still, why would I claim it? Me claiming it does nothing to put down the theory, as already said it could even support it. And all it really does is put attention on me.... and of course believed to be true tells town some useful info.

But yea one to quotes (of which I also have another interesting one, Vitek wanted to show that there can't be more scum teams huh. I wanted to just discuss it less unless it became relevant, he wanted to show it weren't there).

Quoting of interest time:

With this from earlier added on:
So Rodzaju agreed to it, kinda.. except only 2 teams..

SirPrimal has indeed supported if for a long time:
Goes against nmillar on the subject, however not on the subject if it should be a main subject of discussion, but instead on how it was formulated
Moving on to the post I was thinking of an finally found:
But should say something at this point, looking back in the search of the post, I see that I does indeed mention that I also put out this info in order to say that the different flavor shouldn't be taken as proof of multiple mafias. Thats still correct, since I killed him I don't want the multiple mafia theory to be the direction the discussion should take, when it should instead be centered on the info gained from no nightkill occurring. But a good point is that it doesn't disapprove the theory either. And I am rethinking some ideas of mine, after reading this thread again, does give some fresh ideas, I am not sure where to put yet.

Think Red_Baron wants me to prevent him from merging...? :p

Thanks Damn

Of course I forgot the very qoutes of Vitek I mentioned and what got me thinking due to the new knowledge of him being traitor.. Doh, and mentioned myself in third person for some odd ball reason (the he in the first sentence, is indeed me - if there should be any doubt).
Also in order not to completly forget he is in the game:

Erm, excuse me?
I can and will fling the flavour at you.
I am not claiming Violator is a poor mod at all. Handing out information in lynch scenes is what moderators are supposed to do. How much, that's up to them, and not for us to criticise until we see the big picture. Which I don't, and you don't either, even if you're scum.

Information coming from the mod is as close to full truth as you can get in this game (unless the mod is a bastard, of which there has been no indication so far), so I honestly don't understand why you want to doubt it. Might as well start doubting your own role PM.

... wow! Okay...

"tried to shut these discussions down" ?
"very vocal in her opposition to discussing these theories" ?

Sir, you exaggerate. I have (twice) stated my personal belief that it's not a wise move to discuss the theory. If you read back you'll notice I did briefly become involved during the lone-wolf idea debate, but this was in context of trying to figure out Baz's alignment.

It's perfectly possible that I'm wrong, but I stand by my reasons for it: I believe that discussion of the theory is distracting, and in the long run it's irrelevant. (Note that I replaced in, so I missed the initial burst of discussion around the infamous #39.)

Have I ever outright dismissed the idea that there are multiple mafia factions? No I have not. I think this is something everyone has their own opinion on, but arguing about it doesn't make any sense, because the outcome doesn't affect anything.

It seems you (nmillar) have looked at the same evidence as Damnation and come up with the totally opposite conclusion - Damn said earlier on he considers myself and Jefe are the ones actively trying to gather proof for it. (#969)

On another note:
Think about it though, is a situation where 4 negatively-modified power roles are backed-up into one lyncher really likely to exist in a 15-player game? I'd be surprised.

I agree with what I think is your point, i.e. that Violator could have made a decision to only elaborate on the information already revealed by Rod, but I also think the snippet Baz keeps referring to is highly suggestive.

Also @Damnation:
What did you find interesting about the Robb "ordeal"? And if it was potentially significant, how come you haven't commented more on it, other than "aw, I wanted to see more of that..."

Blimey - between games #9 and #10 I should be used to whacking great WOT by now...

Apologies for being away from this one for a while - RL work reared its ugly head, and any spare time I had was concentrated on game 10 and getting through Reds massive WOT's over there..;o)

nmillar continues to discuss the multiple mafia theory, and has now used that to attack Red, claiming those who want the discussion closed down must be Mafia. Damnation also weighed in, although his vote for Red is more based on Barons tone of reply to nmillar than his actual content. Damnation also points out that although the flavour
hints strongly about Rods lies when he was lynched, it doesnt actually go as far as disproving it entirely.

Im still of the opinion that Reds claim is good - why would a mafia claim the kill? Admittedly it would be a very brave and clever play, but I just think we are always guilty of over-thinking stuff in these games (or perhaps I'm just a bit simple..;o)

Baz - Twilight argument - cant see either way there, same rule as applied above (simplest explanation usually right) implies that Rod had Baz's name and flavour as he was the target for Rods Lynch - Rod had a condition he wasn't explicitly allowed to reveal Baz was a non-normal doc.

NFY - I haven't really seen a great deal to make me think theres any scumminess there.

Others - no real reads.

I'm going to have to call out nmillar. This is mainly as I believe Red_Barons claim, and also i think nmillars reasoning for voting Red is highly suspect. I dont see how saying 'discussing whether we have a multiple mafia setup is pointless' can be seen as scum, when at best discussing it will only ever lead to a barrel load of Wine, at least until tomorrow anyway. To use that as the reasoning to vote for someone to me is highly suspect..

Unvote Sirprimalform Vote nmillar

Actually, my main reason is because I don't believe his claim; it's far too similar to the night flavour to actually be a paraphrasing of his PM text. ViolatorX has been quite creative with his flavour posts to date, and seems to enjoy writing, so I would not expect the flavour and the PM to be as similar as Red_Baron claims them to be.

The only reason I've brought up the multiple mafia theory again is to add more substance to my case against Red_Baron and despite some people's criticism, it has brought some more useful discussion with it.

I should also point out that I'm not currently voting for Red_Baron, but I'm pretty used to Robbeasy jumping to conclusions without checking the facts by now! ;)

Because he is town.

Ha! You're right, you never voted - sometimes I amaze myself with my dumbness...;o)

Anyways, you answered NFYs question in such a way that you just knew it would invite speculation? Or you just being mischievous??