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muttly13: As for Rod pushing/prompting/cajoling/pressuring/leading/guiding or whatever other verb we would like to use, the point there is simple. His vote and explanation made it a given in my mind (interpret some other way if you like, thats the way I read it) that it was curtains for Orry.
"sparked" was the word. ;)

First you said the post "sparked" your vote. Second you say the post made you think it was "a given [that Orry would be lynched]" . Third, later on, you say the post "gave you enough confidence" to vote... Each time the nuance changes...

In the post in question, #419, you also jokily suggest an option D to Rod's list. Did he miss it off when he copied his post out from the scumchat?
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muttly13: Town Cop - I did not believe that Orry was the town cop, I believed it was possible he was telling the truth. At the time of my vote I believed it less. As for Rod pushing/prompting/cajoling/pressuring/leading/guiding or whatever other verb we would like to use, the point there is simple. His vote and explanation made it a given in my mind (interpret some other way if you like, thats the way I read it) that it was curtains for Orry.
So you did not believe he was the town cop, but you did believe it was possible he was telling the truth.... when he said he was THE TOWN COP!

This is the kind of thing that has me convinced.
Of course:
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Vitek: I am most concerned with rabbit not using ability on D1. She knew she won't be able to use it 2 next nights and she and town won't benefit from her ability again until Day 6 which is really late. Townie power role should use his/her ability to maximize its effect so why use it again on day you reach only by at least 2 mislynches (if there is 3-player mafia and no SK). On the other hand it's not so necessary for mafia to use ability each night and can't be possible when they need to use another ability.
Eh, look at it, it was meant against Rod originally and ended as attack against rabbit.
I hope it will draw her out of her hole.
Sorry for not replying sooner.

I didn't use it night one.
This was because the likelihood of me finding anything useful with 12 people to choose from and absolutely no data was very low. I did consider examining Pazzer due to the baker thing, but figured if I just got an oven glove or something I would have wasted my ability.
It seemed to me like it was more of a one-shot role, because of the restrictions, and because frankly I didn't expect to survive until D4! In this situation it would have been prudent of me to hold my ability until it had maximum impact.
On N1 (with no lynch) the chances of me stealing from Mafia were 3/11 (assuming there are three mafia; and not including myself because there would be little to gain from investigating myself, and I'm not mafia- but you can believe what you will about that). I would then have had to have waited until N4 to investigate again, my chances of dying before N4 were 1/12 +1/9 + 1/10 + 1/8 = 0.4(ish) which is almost a half! i.e. I had 50% chance of living to use my ability again; and I would have gained useful information with a probablility of only 3/11; i.e. mafia steal. OR i would have stolen from someone who later died or was lynched before i could investigate again. i.e. 1/9 + 1/12... which is 0.4 again

On N2 with a lynch and more data, the chances were 3/10 of stealing mafia, I saw this as a heftier possibility, when accounting for the probability of me being NKed the next night (1/7). If I survived this the chances of my target being alive the next day were also 1/7 if he were town and 1 if he were mafia (assuming we have no serial killer or vig). This seemed to me like a better risk, plus if i didn't claim I may have still had the chance of another investigation, whereas if I'd waited until N3 this likelihood plummets.

I'm in no way saying that just because rod survived, he's mafia, by the way. That would be madness.

As it turns out, I did survive to D4, though I now think it likely that I shall be NKed either tonight or the following night because of my ability. but if it has provided any useful information then I'm glad to be a martyr...!
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Rodzaju: blah blah
In a game of nuance you seem to want to ignore it when it comes to me. You are correct, I held some degree of belief he was the town cop when I voted for him. Is that what you would like to hear and have everyone see? Havent I said as much several times before? Would you like me to quantify it? I would say it was about a 20% chance I believed him at the time of my vote.

That all said, youre telling me you dont think any of the other 6 votes, lets even say three if you assume mafia would have all voted him. None of the other three legit towns held any doubt that he was telling the truth?

You make the EXACT same leap of logic in post 366...

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Rodzaju: Regarding Orry:
I'm really not sure whether he is town or not, or indeed cop or not.
I don't feel comfortable lynching our cop, but do see Vitek's logic that it is dangerous to keep him around.
I haven't made my mind up about the best way to deal with this.
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Rodzaju: blah blah
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muttly13: In a game of nuance you seem to want to ignore it when it comes to me. You are correct, I held some degree of belief he was the town cop when I voted for him. Is that what you would like to hear and have everyone see? Havent I said as much several times before? Would you like me to quantify it? I would say it was about a 20% chance I believed him at the time of my vote.

That all said, youre telling me you dont think any of the other 6 votes, lets even say three if you assume mafia would have all voted him. None of the other three legit towns held any doubt that he was telling the truth?

You make the EXACT same leap of logic in post 366...

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Rodzaju: Regarding Orry:
I'm really not sure whether he is town or not, or indeed cop or not.
I don't feel comfortable lynching our cop, but do see Vitek's logic that it is dangerous to keep him around.
I haven't made my mind up about the best way to deal with this.
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muttly13:
It's got nothing to do with nuance, it's a blatant contradiction.
Let me restate:
"So you did not believe he was the town cop, but you did believe it was possible he was telling the truth.... when he said he was THE TOWN COP!"

Regardless of whether you voted, or whether you felt justified in voting, or if you wanted to take him to dinner, it's just a blatant contradiction.
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Rodzaju: It's got nothing to do with nuance, it's a blatant contradiction.
Let me restate:
"So you did not believe he was the town cop, but you did believe it was possible he was telling the truth.... when he said he was THE TOWN COP!"

Regardless of whether you voted, or whether you felt justified in voting, or if you wanted to take him to dinner, it's just a blatant contradiction.
Its a contradiction to not be 100% on something? I have said that from the start and never changed my statement on it. No contradiction at all.
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Rodzaju: blah blah
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muttly13:
...well you just shot up on my scumlist with that little stunt, muttly. You're panicking. Replacing the quote like that makes it look like you're trying to fudge everyone's perception of the argument by not showing what you're responding to...

((Out of game: it's also pretty rude... Replacing quotations with perjorative paraphrasing was a central aspect of Popinjay's lynch in G4... -_-; ))

Re believing / not believing.... Let me scrabble around for the posts in question...

#769 is the contradition.

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muttly13: I did not believe that Orry was the town cop, I believed it was possible he was telling the truth.
Presumably referring to #377:
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muttly13: 1 - I dont really know why, but I tend to beleive O. I am not against lynching him if I am the last vote kind of thing, but I wouldnt pick him as my first choice.
That's all you say about the matter, then you voted for Primal.

"tending to believe O" -> "tending to believe" his claim -> "tending to believe" he is the Town Cop. Right?
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Rodzaju: It's got nothing to do with nuance, it's a blatant contradiction.
Let me restate:
"So you did not believe he was the town cop, but you did believe it was possible he was telling the truth.... when he said he was THE TOWN COP!"

Regardless of whether you voted, or whether you felt justified in voting, or if you wanted to take him to dinner, it's just a blatant contradiction.
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muttly13: Its a contradiction to not be 100% on something? I have said that from the start and never changed my statement on it. No contradiction at all.
Let's break this sentence down:
He said he was the town cop.
You say you believe him.
You say you don't believe he is the town cop.

100% certainty doesn't come into it.
Random speculation doesn't come into it.
In the same sentence you both believe him & don't believe him.
There's no either / or.
There's no interpretation or spin.
Just plain contradiction.
My post #787 3 minutes ago.
Rod's post #788 7 minutes ago.

?!
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NotFrenchYet: [ ...well you just shot up on my scumlist with that little stunt, muttly. You're panicking. Replacing the quote like that makes it look like you're trying to fudge everyone's perception of the argument by not showing what you're responding to...

((Out of game: it's also pretty rude... Replacing quotations with perjorative paraphrasing was a central aspect of Popinjay's lynch in G4... -_-; ))
Okay... only its a common practice on this board to save space, has occured throughout this post in fact.


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NotFrenchYet: Re believing / not believing.... Let me scrabble around for the posts in question...

#769 is the contradition.

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muttly13: I did not believe that Orry was the town cop, I believed it was possible he was telling the truth.
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NotFrenchYet: Presumably referring to #377:
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muttly13: 1 - I dont really know why, but I tend to beleive O. I am not against lynching him if I am the last vote kind of thing, but I wouldnt pick him as my first choice.
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NotFrenchYet: That's all you say about the matter, then you voted for Primal.

"tending to believe O" -> "tending to believe" his claim -> "tending to believe" he is the Town Cop. Right?
I have explained this as much as I am able. I am sorry to town folk I could not make it clearer. Take as you will.
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NotFrenchYet: Snip....
"tending to believe O" -> "tending to believe" his claim -> "tending to believe" he is the Town Cop. Right?
THANK YOU!
THAT is the point I've been trying to make!!
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Rodzaju: Let's break this sentence down:
He said he was the town cop.
You say you believe him.
You say you don't believe he is the town cop.

100% certainty doesn't come into it.
Random speculation doesn't come into it.
In the same sentence you both believe him & don't believe him.
There's no either / or.
There's no interpretation or spin.
Just plain contradiction.
Again, use my words please. I never said he was the cop, I said I was leaning toward beleiving him. Theres a difference, if you choose to ignore it, so be it.

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NotFrenchYet: Snip....
"tending to believe O" -> "tending to believe" his claim -> "tending to believe" he is the Town Cop. Right?
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Rodzaju: THANK YOU!
THAT is the point I've been trying to make!!
If thats the only point, you have wasted a lot of folks time. I have never denied that path. In fact, I reiterated it not a dozen posts ago. What i am objecting you is your black and white interpretation to something I have clearly claimed, from the start long before you were involved, I was going back and forth on. So basically your point is I must be mafia since i shared that my mind was changed with the town.
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Rodzaju: Let's break this sentence down:
He said he was the town cop.
You say you believe him.
You say you don't believe he is the town cop.

100% certainty doesn't come into it.
Random speculation doesn't come into it.
In the same sentence you both believe him & don't believe him.
There's no either / or.
There's no interpretation or spin.
Just plain contradiction.
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muttly13: Again, use my words please. I never said he was the cop, I said I was leaning toward beleiving him. Theres a difference, if you choose to ignore it, so be it.

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Rodzaju: THANK YOU!
THAT is the point I've been trying to make!!
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muttly13: If thats the only point, you have wasted a lot of folks time. I have never denied that path. In fact, I reiterated it not a dozen posts ago. What i am objecting you is your black and white interpretation to something I have clearly claimed, from the start long before you were involved, I was going back and forth on. So basically your point is I must be mafia since i shared that my mind was changed with the town.
Your mind was changed with the town MID SENTENCE?????
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Rodzaju: ...
Your mind was changed with the town MID SENTENCE?????
Okay, now you lost me... But dont bother trying to explain, I am done responding to this line of thought. I assume everyone has the info they need to vote and no amount of further banter will change it.

All in all another super slow day. I am starting to feel based on some older posts and lack of participation people are drifting away from the game? Right, wrong, anyone else? I will once again likely be gone for most of the weekend so posting will be light/nonexistent until after the deadline.
You call this slow?!

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muttly13: Okay... only its a common practice on this board to save space, has occured throughout this post in fact.
Yes, but "snip" =/= "blah blah". Just a friendly warning that "blah blah" is far more open to negative interpretation (and therefore antagonism and/or confusion) than "snip" or "[...]"

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muttly13: I have explained this as much as I am able. I am sorry to town folk I could not make it clearer. Take as you will.
??? "Take as you will" is effectively throwing wine in our faces...

I'm getting itchy to launch my vote... First Vitek and now Rod have made cases against you which you have dealt with rather strangely... To Vitek you basically just said "Yep, that's all true." With Rod you exploded, and there are pages and pages of knots and tangles...

The deadline is next Thursday by the way, so you've still got time :)