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muttly13: "I dont really know why, but I tend to beleive O. I am not against lynching him if I am the last vote kind of thing, but I wouldnt pick him as my first choice. "
OK, so taking your exact words:
You tend to believe O(rry).
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "Tend to believe", but it sounds nothing like "don't believe".
You are not against lynching him if you are the last vote...
...You wouldn't pick him as your first choice.
So you tend to believe him that he is town cop, but you are not against lynching him.
The only people that would happily lynch someone that they believe to be town cop are mafia.
You say that you wouldn't pick him as your first choice but then you DO vote him, and NOT as the last vote either (You put him at L-1).

Please explain how this is anything but scummy in the extreme.
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SirPrimalform: I'm with you on suspecting muttly, his day one unprompted softclaim is a bit weird.
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muttly13: Really? So I come into the game clearly as a new player and RP a bit about a role that isnt exactly super common (baker) completely unprompted and doesnt make sense in any scenario you can come up with and it still appears weird? What sense would declaring i am a baker make Day 1? So the mafia would kill me instantly? What makes sense is it was a newbie mistake on my part to RP. And to take it further, what advantage could i possibly get from claiming that early?
It's not unheard of for mafia to try and get a softclaim in early so that when questioned later they can go 'Look, I was dropping hints on the first day! I clearly haven't just made my claim up'. Your softclaim was so transparent that everyone spotted it instantly and it did look suspicious.
This could indeed be down to you being a new player but we can't just ignore it.

For the record, I don't see how Rod is twisting your words. The only possible interpretation of your sentence I can come up with is that you:

1) At least partially believe Orry, and
2) still don't mind lynching him.
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Rodzaju: OK, so taking your exact words:
You tend to believe O(rry).
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "Tend to believe", but it sounds nothing like "don't believe".
You are not against lynching him if you are the last vote...
...You wouldn't pick him as your first choice.
So you tend to believe him that he is town cop, but you are not against lynching him.
The only people that would happily lynch someone that they believe to be town cop are mafia.
You say that you wouldn't pick him as your first choice but then you DO vote him, and NOT as the last vote either (You put him at L-1).

Please explain how this is anything but scummy in the extreme.
Oh? We can use my exact words now, how nice! I do enjoy how you say my exact words and then paraphrase.

"Tend to believe" - Means exactly what it says. At that point I tended toward believing him. Just like I will now say, I tend to think you know exactly what it meant and you are once again attempting to warp my words that are clearly stated.

" You are not against lynching him if you are the last vote...
...You wouldn't pick him as your first choice. " - I am new to this game, but I am not unable to pick out human behavior. Next to last vote would be as good as the last in the environment surrounding Orry. To deny that is just plain silly. Of course, one could also take my statement and think "hey, I can probably get another vote in Muttly" and then vote in the hopes I would follow, and who was it that sparked my vote I wonder... Oh yes!!! It was you!
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SirPrimalform: For the record, I don't see how Rod is twisting your words. The only possible interpretation of your sentence I can come up with is that you:

1) At least partially believe Orry, and
2) still don't mind lynching him.
Correct on both counts. Rod is leaving out the parts that explain those feelings and subsequent decisions.
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muttly13: I am new to this game, but I am not unable to pick out human behavior. Next to last vote would be as good as the last in the environment surrounding Orry. To deny that is just plain silly. Of course, one could also take my statement and think "hey, I can probably get another vote in Muttly" and then vote in the hopes I would follow, and who was it that sparked my vote I wonder... Oh yes!!! It was you!
Actually, next to last vote is VERY different to last vote in this game.
In Game 4 I was at L-1 for quite a while on day 1, but managed to end the day alive after someone else got lynched.

You are the person who has stated that he has voted because he thinks he can get support.
Don't project your personality onto me, please.
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Rodzaju: Actually, next to last vote is VERY different to last vote in this game.
In Game 4 I was at L-1 for quite a while on day 1, but managed to end the day alive after someone else got lynched.

You are the person who has stated that he has voted because he thinks he can get support.
Don't project your personality onto me, please.
If you ignore the actual game environment and heap in an irrelevant one, I agree.

That correct, as I am most anxious to get the pople I beleive are scum. Same as I would change my vote in a heartbeat if i thought I could lynch my other suspects Vitek and Rabbit. Not a lot of point going down a road without folks to follow with you. So you have no official retort that you seem to have voted directly after I said I would vote for O given a push in that direction? Were I outside this conversation looking in I would certainly like some clarity on that point.
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muttly13:
You didn't say you would vote if you were given a push in that dierection.
You said that you were not agianst lynching him if you were the last vote.

I did not push you into anything.
I explained MY reasons for voting Orry.

It appears to me that oyu have been proven to contradict yourself.
You are making escuses for this and trying to make the whole thing my fault.
We are back to manufacturing evidence again, aren't we?
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Rodzaju: We are back to manufacturing evidence again, aren't we?
Nope, I am asking questions which always seem to get brushed off with "muttlys scum" but no actual substance save misquoting me.

I suppose i will leave this at the feet of the rest of Town. I postulate that Vitek, Rabbit, and Rod are scum. Vitke votes me, Rod votes me while Vitek remains utterly silent on the topic. All thats missing is the obvious Rabbit vote which will clearly never come until its cinched.

Any rate, nothing further to be gained with he said, she said. Make your call or keep looking and convince me to vote elsewhere.
Anyone else think I pushed him into voting for Orry?
Sorry that this is a bit late.
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NotFrenchYet: @Xyem: We could go back and forth like this for a very long time..! You make good points (especially about my odd conclusions - my particular brand of logic is less steps and more leapfrogs...), and I could happily carry on arguing, but it seems to have indirectly sparked other discussion. Is there anything you'd particularly like me to address, or can we let this lie for now?
If your attention is going to be halved, I'm fine with putting this on hold. Besides, you were the one investigating me :P

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NotFrenchYet: Serious question, can you tell us about the 'baa' then? Or that just as horrible?
Breaking the restriction itself doesn't matter at this stage but I can't do anything more than that. I seriously would if I could for the reasons I've stated before (Joe is interfering with the game).

@Rod: You say that I bring it up to distract from what I was previously saying. Where have I done this? As far as I can remember, the only time it has been brought up was prompted (discussions about Joe being a BM for example).

@SPF: How could I have made it up? I was the first person to even mention that I had a restriction and would have had no way of knowing Joe was putting restrictions on people (proved by Orry to be true) if I hadn't got any myself at that point.

I was about to point out that littlerabbit has been really quiet and then I remembered why :P

I know this is most likely just a case of Joe being a BM but I just spotted this (emphasis mine)...
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JoeSapphire: 12. All players on the winning team win!
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NotFrenchYet: The horribly frustrating added condition is that I can only win with Town if the Old Woman is still alive. I swore rather badly at the start of D2... As I understand it, whatever happens in the game now, I lose regardless. D:
I have to admit, now I'm starting to wonder if anyone has any post restrictions in regards to voting. For example, muttly being forced to hammer vote Orry. It would explain the peculiarity of saying he has doubts and then killing him regardless..
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xyem: @Rod: You say that I bring it up to distract from what I was previously saying. Where have I done this? As far as I can remember, the only time it has been brought up was prompted (discussions about Joe being a BM for example).
I didn't say that you DID do this.
I raised the possibility that you MAY be doing this.
I also said that I couldn't find any hard evidence either way & asked if someone else might want to take a look.
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xyem: ...

@SPF: How could I have made it up? I was the first person to even mention that I had a restriction and would have had no way of knowing Joe was putting restrictions on people (proved by Orry to be true) if I hadn't got any myself at that point.

...

I have to admit, now I'm starting to wonder if anyone has any post restrictions in regards to voting. For example, muttly being forced to hammer vote Orry. It would explain the peculiarity of saying he has doubts and then killing him regardless..
I said it was a possibility, that's all. I took your post restriction to be fact, but Rod pointed that it's certainly not confirmed.

I didn't think muttly hammered Orry BTW, wasn't it Pazzer? I seem to remember Pazzer hadn't been taking part in the discussion at that point either, he just turned up and hammered Orry.
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SirPrimalform: I didn't think muttly hammered Orry BTW, wasn't it Pazzer? I seem to remember Pazzer hadn't been taking part in the discussion at that point either, he just turned up and hammered Orry.
That is one of the points I've been making.
Muttly said in post 377 that he would be happy to vote Orry if he was the hammer.
However, he actually voted to put Orry at L-1.
When I challenged him about this earlier, his response was that I pushed him to vote.
I am disputing this version of events.
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Rodzaju: [ That is one of the points I've been making.
Muttly said in post 377 that he would be happy to vote Orry if he was the hammer.
However, he actually voted to put Orry at L-1.
When I challenged him about this earlier, his response was that I pushed him to vote.
I am disputing this version of events.
You can read my post where I say you led me to vote... I said as much when I did it.

I also clearly stated I was putting him at L1... All these things you present as mysterious are clear as day for anyone to revisit.

@SPF - Yes, it was Pazzer with the final vote.

@Xyem - For the sake of total disclosure, I have no vote restrictions. I voted Orry the way I did based on what I have said. Yes, I thought originally he may have been telling the truth. Yes, my mind slowly changed (which I posted multiple times in the voting process) . Yes, I voted Orry because i thought it would finally get us some actual information, even if there was a risk he was town. Which I also pointed out from D1.
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muttly13: I really dont see how I have been anti-town so I cant address it directly. As for making a mess of Day 4, why is sharing ideas floating in my head making a mess? Isnt the idea to get ideas out there? We all discussed for many days and I did not vote until I thought I had a firm read. Which I still think I do.

As for changing theories and generally who i might vote for, I dont take a minutes pause for changing my mind. New info presents itself and one idea appears stronger or weaker depending on both my own feelings on it and comment regarding it. For example, people mention that I thought experienced players might be mafia. A few others commented on it and altered the way i thought about it. End of story, I wont continue to push an idea I have changed my mind on based on discussion simply because it would make me appear more "town".
Apologies, my post wasn't very clear - the reasons following the suspects list were one per player, so the only one which effected you was "extremely inconsistant".

Let's look at the order of votes on Orry then, shall we? (I knew this would come in handy!)
Order of votes on the D2 Orry wagon:
Primal (#280),
Frenchie (#283),
Vitek (#286),
Rod (#288),
Rod unvotes (#311),
Rod revotes (418),
Muttly (#419),
Pazzer (#424)

Let me zip back and check that...

Aha. Two things. One: I apologise, I made a mistake on the post number. Rod voted Orry for the second time at #418

Two: here are the posts in question.
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Rodzaju: OK, that muddies the waters even further.
Orry (affiliation unknown & highly suspect) named you town.
Either:
A) Orry is cop & you are town.
B) Orry is scum & you are town.
C) You are both scum.

A raises the question of why have you 2 been given names, when no-one else is willing to admit to them?

B suggests that naming you gives Orry a degree of credibility.
Why? At the time that he did this (And indeed still) I have seen nothing that convinces me you are town. Granted, I've seen nothing to cast excessive suspicion on you either, but....

C is just a dumb move. As soon as Orry flips scum, you come under extreme srutiny.
More or less town win in 1 easy step.

We seem to be going round in circles & tying ourselves in knots (well I am anyway).
Sorry, Orry, but I think I need something definite to help sort things out.
Vote Orry
The next post is:
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muttly13: Slow night... So given Rods vote (you forgot option "D" - O is an INSANE cop and Baz is scum!!! - Just kidding) and the point that O isnt going to be much good as the cop even if he is telling the truth for at least two more days. I beleive I am ready to push the limit for Orryyrro.

Putting him one away with vote Orryyrro
Well, muttly, your post does seem to indicate that you acknowledged Rod's vote, but personally I can't seem to interpret it as pressure. There's nothing in Rod's post which indicates pressure - in fact, your comment 'slow night' seems to indicate the reverse...

... Ohhh. Unless you were picking up a hint, of course. From your scumbuddy.

Which might also explain your current, rather spirited defence...