This sentence jumps out at me.
I've never heard of a townie bussing a townie.
In fact the wiki entry starts:
"Bussing is the act of distancing yourself from your scum partners, usually by helping to lynch them"

It's a small thing, but I'm becoming increasingly convinced that, rather than a sudden huge revelation, it's a gathering of small things that are going to decide the day.

@pazzer:
Nice try. I said he presumably knew he was talking to the Fairy, as I knew I'd be talking to the Old Woman, but neither of us knew which player had the other role. The hint is in #114, buried in a question to xyem:
This being D1 on my first ever game, I didn't twig that it was a hint ; I only noticed it when Primal pointed out that he'd inferred Violator knew about the Fairy from "some things Violator said". So I went back and read D1 and found this. -_-;

And yes, you still have no proof I'm town, or the mason, although it is a very strong possibility. Remember those ?s I left on the list?

@all: By the way, note that pazzer is chosing to keep prodding me about my claim, right in the middle of this discussion. Also note that xyem says he only just realised why pazzer was under the microscope, despite removing his vote on me to allow me/everyone to continue pressuring pazzer (which suggests to me that he was up to date with the thread at the time).

@Rod: that jumped out at me too...

(@xyem will follow in a seperate post...)

As promised:

@xyem:

Yeahhh, but I have so much data on you it was always going to be a wall of text. :P If I summerised I would probably have been accused of 'twisting things' again. And if I split it all up into seperate posts it wouldn't have been a coherant argument.

TwilightBard did mention that. He was also NKed. There is nothing to suggest these two events are not linked.

Yes, it's pretty unlikely, but I still think it's possible. It's a bold move, but it's possible.

You've broken it, by the way, a few times now. Fancy being more talkative about your claim now? :D

I am suggesting that pro-town play is play where you at least offer reads and opinions - this does not equate "pushing for a kill".

I mean, even now I'm pushing you and applying pressure, but that doesn't mean I think we should definitely kill you. I don't, after the mess I made of D2 (note I haven't voted for you). I'm going to go after at least two other people like this before the day's out (probably Muttly (see above) and Primal (see below), and if I get time I'll find quotes to support the pazzer case). Even if we nolynch and go to LyLo, the reactions should be helpful.

Additionally: yes the fact that there were a few posts on the benefits of lynching doesn't mean you have to agree with it. However, the benefits of lynching turned out to work in town's favour. Not only does it create data, but there's always a chance we'll hit Mafia.

Question: Are you saying you don't agree with something which is pro-town? (I'm talking about D1 and 2 here, not D4, since this is MyLo and a different animal altogether.)

Second question: How do you propose we get data without lynching each other? When I say 'data' I mean truly objective stuff.

"something that doesn't even make sense" = "buddying up is encouraging", right? Well, at the time yes, it was encouraging, but when you put it like that, I'm not so sure anymore... You're right, Primal noted I was probably the strongest case for town, then proceeded to buddy up.

I don't have to understand something to figure out its best to not get in the way of it happening.

Fair enough.

I wasn't saying it wasn't possible, I was just saying that you jumped to the unlikely possibility first with "evidence" that doesn't match up to what you are saying.

As though that is how you are hiding and you are projecting. But again, it's impossible to figure out if this is the case because of Joe's interference with the posts. My first thought is that this isn't the case because of the lack of other mason claims.. but true mason may be restricted from posting that they are the mason with the consequence of breaking it as instant mafia win.

Different post restrictions with different consequences for breaking them.

I'm a sheep and I have no flavour text. Baaa.

Not at all.

It's simple reward/punishment mechanics at play. I was very assertive about my suspicions and it got a townie killed. I attributed my failure at being too new to the game.. so I've reeled my assertiveness right back. Now I just point things out and in the case that someone else agrees that I'm on to something.. I'll start prying. As I get better at the game (i.e. more positive results), I'll be more assertive to start with.

You are trying to apply something absolute (the best way to play) to something subjective (my experiences of playing).

Usually it's done by what people say/do.. where they contradict. I've figured out when people are lying before using nothing more than what they've told me in a single discussion.

I have a question for you. What makes you "objective data" (vote order, hammer vote etc.) any better than anything else? You have to interpret data to use it (especially here) and that makes it subjective.. vulnerable to biases from subjective things.

And this is a good demonstration of what I mean. You brought something up in the case against me (despite it not making sense) because you were suspicious of me. You took something as encouraging (despite it looking blatantly like buddying up) because you were not suspicious of SPF.

You claim to be fine with lynching townies because it generates "objective data" yet completely fail to be objective. What you are saying ("I want objective data!") and what you are doing (not being objective) is one of the reasons why you are generating suspicion.

I did notice that you haven't voted for me and I hope you've noticed I haven't voted for you either. My reasoning for this is that although you are making me suspicious of you, you are also simply getting the most exposure to my attention (i.e. you're demanding it by "investigating" me).

I do think it is quite amusing that there are stark differences in our approaches.
I seek to maximise town population for each day (many eyes make all bugs shallow).
You seek to maximise "data" (which can be misinterpreted or even skewed purposely by those you claim to be trying to uncover) regardless of the townie cost.

Pazzer, I am still concerned about the way you claimed. You were eager to claim since beginning of day and wanted massclaim and then you claimed as soon as you got 1 vote but were reluctant to share almost any informations. Why were you so eager to claim when you have useless (used up) role and you have been reluctant to tell us your target and other things.
I also expected you to make something with claims but after claiming it seems as you stopped to care.

Just to make it official: FOS Pazzer.

Because NFY has been concentrating on Xyem you mostly seem to have wriggled free. I'm interested in the answers to all the questions Vitek just asked.

If you think I've wriggled free then you're obviously reading a different thread. As far as I'm concerned everyone has said they will vote for me. In fact I fully expected to be lynched today.
Though I do question the logic of going after me when I require 6/7 votes.

Honestly Vitek the Orryyrro saga killed the game for me and I was hoping the mafia would kill me. As I just wanted the game to be over so I could find out what the heck Joe was thinking.

I like mass claims, I asked for one at the end of game 2 even though I already knew everyones role. It was a long shot in this game but as there was very little information to go on I didn't think it could hurt.

As it turns out the mass claim has pretty much confirmed NotFrenchYet as town. Also very likely
Rodzaju is town.

At the time I claimed I think I'm right in saying 4 people were against claiming. So I knew there would be no mass claiming. So though may as well claim as if I didn't lynch all liers would apply. Also realised at the time the danger town were in if they got to 2 votes. So was the perfect time to claim.

As I didn't think the information was useful I made the mistake of thinking no one else would be interested. Also didn't see how it would help identify mafia. But I take the point I should be more open in future games.

If you think I'm mafia then don't be scared to vote for me. Though I'd prefer you do it sooner as it would save me having to re read the thread.

With all the talk about a mafia flavour cop is curious LittleRabbit hasn't been under more pressure.

I've just finished going through the whole thread again.
Once I've reviewed my notes, I'll go into the things that jumped out at me.

For now, though, I have an answer to the vexing question of rabbit's "Little maid" & where it first appeared:

Day 1, Post 144:
"As for me, I am a youthful maid. :) "

Post 377:
“1 - I dont really know why, but I tend to beleive O. I am not against lynching him if I am the last vote kind of thing, but I wouldnt pick him as my first choice.”

You believe him, but will hammer him anyway?
Lots of scum points here.

Post 266:
“One person who did stick out for my was Sirprimalform. I thought the whole "I was about to remove my vote..." seems very setup to me. Along the lines of "I was going to pull my vote but didnt get to do it in time, woe is me that townie got lynched!" Again, just a feeling, but a strong one for me.”

Post 281:
“Well, in any case, I feel there is a scummier target in my eyes. That said... vote sirprimalform “

Post 416:
“I find the following folks suspicious based solely on the timing and convenience of their posts. Nothing much else.

TwilightBard
SirPrimalForm”

Post 514:
“So to address most of the post I will simply say, if you assume what I say is my true feeling at the time it all makes perfect sense.
SPF - Still feel he is scum.”

Post 657:
“Rodzaju
Certainly on my scumdar. That little vote fiasco and past actions leave me with a bad feeling.
SirPrimalform
Leaning scum. Always seems to get on an established band wagon and rarely starts anything on his own
if I were pressed at this second to choose or die, I would likely go with my group theory of Rod, Rabbit, and Vitek “

This is the first mention that you’re suspicious of me, but you see fit to vote me & then disappear for a few days....
Considering all the above mentions of SPF, why does he not make your “Hot 3”?

Hinted at his role back on day 2, Post 254:
“... that's just depressing. Scum, I hope you're proud of yourselves”
As SHE learned that Violator had been killed.
At the time, I assumed it was a reaction to the murder of an old woman.
With hindsight, I see the added significance.

I’m fairly sure is town, due largely to the “?”s on the lists & the un-countered Mason claim.

Post 533:
@Rod: ...
also, 'That made me jump' was an incident waaaay back in RVS, when Primal voted '...not yet' and I decided to try something. I baited by commenting 'That made me jump' - post #124. Rod and Rabbit pounced on it (#125 and #126), and Primal commented in #129. I'm not attaching too much importance to this one incident, but I have been bearing it in mind through the thread.

Just realised that I never addressed this.
It was intended as a bit of fun, very similar to my “French, but not in France” comment.
I would hope that you might of noticed by now, I try to be a bit of a smartass.
;-}

The big thing I notice is the habit of voting with no explanation at all.

Post 502:
“Forgot to do this Unvote Vitek, Vote Muttly”
No explanation.

Post 517:
“First things first unvote Muttly”
Again, No explanation

Post 556:
“Sack it Vote LittleRabbit “
NO explanation

As I said to Rabbit back on Day 1, I find this sort of thing to be very scummy.
You've been around long enough to know better.

Is a bad habit I assume people already know my reasons so don't bother posting them. Can't remember if I did that with Orryyrro day 2.

As for today am just posting quickly instead of thinking though my posts and double checking. Which as you've seen leads to loads of mistakes.

My vote for Muttly was because I had some wierd reason why he must be mafia. Made sense at the time by was completly nonsense.

Unvoted Muttly because my reason for voting for him was wrong. Also I think Vitek was voting for him and didn't want to take the risk of easy lynh for mafia. If Vitek is also town.

At the time of post 556 I felt the game had staled so wanted to try and get it moving. Were a few people on 1 vote. Couldn't vote for myself as that's a big no no. So voted LittleRabbit. Thinking either the game would end or one of Rodzaju and LittleRabbit were mafia.

@Xyem: We could go back and forth like this for a very long time..! You make good points (especially about my odd conclusions - my particular brand of logic is less steps and more leapfrogs...), and I could happily carry on arguing, but it seems to have indirectly sparked other discussion. Is there anything you'd particularly like me to address, or can we let this lie for now?

Actually, there's just one point I'd like to follow up right away...
Serious question, can you tell us about the 'baa' then? Or that just as horrible?

((Also, you guys should know I've just been drafted in as a replacement in game 9, so I'd like to ask you to take this into consideration when my posting habits inevitably change to accomodate this..!))

@Rod, damn, you beat me to it. Here's my version anyway, concentrating on D4:

Muttly's D4 suspicions:

#478: "experienced players"
#514: Primal, pazzer, xyem
#524: Primal "still primary suspect".
#619: Vitek
#657: Primal "leaning scum", Xyem "hasn't done anything particularly scummy apart from D1", Vitek "close to top of scum list", Rabbit. Group theory that Rod, rabbit and Vitek are scum.
#663: "pretty sure" Rod is scum
#684: Rod, Vitek and Rabbit

@Muttly: You started D4 with Primal, pazzer and xyem. The last time you checked it was Rod, Vitek and Rabbit. I feel left out. ;) Seriously though, out of interest, why are you not suspicious of me? Pazzer and xyem have both pointed out that despite all the evidence I'm still not proven town...

Speaking of which...

@Pazzer:
#704:
#712:
... what made you change your mind so quickly?

What has jumped out at me about it is that I KNOW what I am.
I also remember the events you are talking about (& still cringe about the bandages!)
Rabbit didn't say anything definitive until after I claimed.
At which point, if she was faking the investigation, I would have expected something like a crystal ball.
A wand is suggestive, but also open to interpretation & question.
Perhaps she is a better player than I was, but it is the fact that it is not a perfect fit that makes it more believable to me.
That is not to say that I am convinced beyond doubt, buti t is hard to pick something out & say "That is where she slipped up".
The lack of use on day 1 is the most interesting part of this.
I would expect a new player to be eager to make use of her abilities.
It takes an amount of patience to hold off in the way she describes.
Compare this with the eagerness to lynch that Muttly has shown.
Once again, I'm drawn back to my thesis of an experienced guiding hand....