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General discussion (archive)gog Forum Mafia #8!(1144 posts)(1144 posts)
(1144 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted November 09, 2011
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Rodzaju: Why would that NOT be an actual unvote?
Because it did not follow format per Rule 4. Not sure how tightly we are sticking to the rules.
Posted November 09, 2011
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Rodzaju: Why would that NOT be an actual unvote?
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muttly13: Because it did not follow format per Rule 4. Not sure how tightly we are sticking to the rules.
Read back through the thread.
Is this the first time an unvote has been written in this manner?

See post 15, 160, 214, 215.
And that's just in day 1.

No, I thought not.

Kinda makes me wonder where you're going with this.
You seem to have decided I am guilty & struggling to find evidence, so trying to manufacture some...
Posted November 09, 2011
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Rodzaju: Read back through the thread.
Is this the first time an unvote has been written in this manner?

See post 15, 160, 214, 215.
And that's just in day 1.

No, I thought not.
Just the first time its been important.

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Rodzaju: Kinda makes me wonder where you're going with this.
You seem to have decided I am guilty & struggling to find evidence, so trying to manufacture some...
I thought I have been pretty clear on where I am going. But if it needs further clarification... Yup, I am pretty sure youre scum.

As for manufacture, I also made it clear that I was asking and if it was not the case then it held no validity. Once again, I feel pretty clearly stated.
Posted November 09, 2011
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Vitek: @Sirprimalform, littlerabbit, muttly: Do you intend to use your vote at least once today or are you just going to drift towards deadline without voting?
This applies partly to Xyem too as he voted for whooping 6 posts.
I know we have to tread more carefully than on D1 but without votes we won't get anywhere.
You even haven't FOSed anyone.
I haven't been voting because of the fact that it only takes 5 votes to lynch. If we have 3 mafia then all townies are essentially at L-2 without any votes.
Just because I didn't formally FOS someone (which has no real meaning) doesn't mean I haven't highlighted the people I find suspicious.
Xyem and Rod were my most recent scummy reads.
Posted November 09, 2011
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Vitek: @Sirprimalform, littlerabbit, muttly: Do you intend to use your vote at least once today or are you just going to drift towards deadline without voting?
This applies partly to Xyem too as he voted for whooping 6 posts.
I know we have to tread more carefully than on D1 but without votes we won't get anywhere.
You even haven't FOSed anyone.
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SirPrimalform: I haven't been voting because of the fact that it only takes 5 votes to lynch. If we have 3 mafia then all townies are essentially at L-2 without any votes.
Just because I didn't formally FOS someone (which has no real meaning) doesn't mean I haven't highlighted the people I find suspicious.
Xyem and Rod were my most recent scummy reads.
^ this^
Posted November 09, 2011
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xyem: Unless you want the vote to be on you, I suggest you leave me to use my vote when I think I should use it :/
No I won't.
You should vote. I am not saying right now but I started to doubt if you all ever intend to use it. That's why I "prodded" you. I am quite satisfied as it made at least muttly to post.

@muttly; yes I meant today as on D4. And no, I wouldn't vote pazzer if Rod was still voting him.

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SirPrimalform: I haven't been voting because of the fact that it only takes 5 votes to lynch. If we have 3 mafia then all townies are essentially at L-2 without any votes.
Just because I didn't formally FOS someone (which has no real meaning) doesn't mean I haven't highlighted the people I find suspicious.
Xyem and Rod were my most recent scummy reads.
Yeah, but you have to use it eventually because we won't get nowhere without it and if you are afraid to vote, well, that's ideal oppportunity for FOSing even if you don't usually use it (I don't use it either) because if everyone will just observe we will be just staring at each other and won't find anything. You have to open your cards a bit.
Posted November 09, 2011
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pazzer: @NotFrenchYet i'd like to hear Violator's reads. Your role is a bit harsh if telling the truth.
I didn't make a soft claim. On day 1 I was sick of all the role playing and soft claiming so decided to have a joke. Claiming La Li Lu Le Lo I think that's right. Which as anyone who has played metal gear solid 2 knows is the hidden codename for the Patriots.
I'm afraid the reads are not that useful, since the only time I got to talk to him was N1... He felt Orry wouldn't be lying with that claim, thought Vitek was probably town, and got a scummy vibe from baz. He was unsure about Pazzer and TwilightBard, and said Muttly was definitely playing like a lyncher. <_<

I looked up la li lu le lo and was alarmed to find you'd made a reference to a hidden force who secretly control people...

My role wouldn't be so harsh if the mafia hadn't picked off the poor old woman right away..! As it is, yes, it's kind of naff. I'm still playing with enthusiasm because I'm having a lot of fun and I don't want to waste my first time playing this, and it's the mafia's fault I can't win, so I'd really quite like to see them swing...

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SirPrimalform: Yeah, but I was so certain I'd seen the words 'little girl'. Must have... para-remembered it or something.
... o.o Alert. I can think of a situation which would explain why you've already seen the "Little Girl" phrase, and it's not encouraging. I'm beginning to wonder if this was a slip...

I dont trust the Rod/Rabbit claims... too cheery, with a faint hint of orchestration... I'm sceptical that a Fortune Teller would have a magical item like a wand.

@Rabbit, do you have any more detail on the wand? Did you go into Rod's home? If so what did you see?

Vitek: Unsure. Twice mentioned something without verifying his facts first - the character thing (it caught me out), but also Rabbit's 2-night rest restriction. Small issues, but distracting ones which could have snowballed if no one had paid attention...

Rod: Unsure. Is throwing out a LOT of slightly wild accusations and theories - looking to provoke a slip, or looking to distract us?

Leaving for home now, more later...
Posted November 09, 2011
Oh blow it. I can't keep all this in any longer. I feel like this is a risk, but I'm not sure why. Here's my case against Xyem.

a) He's playing extremely defensively - posted more spontaneously towards the beginning of today, but tailed off. What posts there are are not that substantial, and give the impression of contributing to discussion without actually advancing any theories. E.g. post 516 gives no opinion on Pazzer while seeming to do so (my underlining) -
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xyem: If we are at mislynch-and-lose then the mafia wouldn't really need to know roles. They'd just have to push for a townie to be lynched. As far as I can tell, the mafia knowing roles would only help them if they know this is going to go on for another day. So either pazzer is acting in towns interest or he's scum and knows more about the games setup which means it'll go to tomorrow even if we mislynch (like their only being 2 mafia or something).
Either he's acting in town's interest, or he's scum. Aren't we all?
Another example is the contradiction in the power roles / experienced players question.
On the subject of the nightkills, he seems to share Muttly's opinion that the targets were chosen based on experienced players. The fact that two out of three had power roles doesn't seem to figure in his explanation. Both of them seem to be reluctant to consider the possibility of a mafia role cop, or similar -
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xyem: I think targetting experienced players is a likely tactic being used, but I don't think it infers anything about how experienced the mafia are. It simply makes the most sense to target them as they are most likely to figure the mafia out.
However, this is a contradiction with his defence in #546 -
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xyem: That's.. very bád reasoning. It is far more reasonable that those that stayed off the bândwagon are still alive simply because we didn't have power roles.
So it makes "the most sense" to NK the experienced players, but it's far more reasonable that those who didn't participate in the lynch didn't get NKed because they didn't have power roles?

b) I'm wondering if he could be faking the post restriction... Orry and Rod both broke theirs... I'm wondering if a bit more pressure might encourage xyem to be a bit more helpful. At the moment, these hints are causing a lot of confusion and needless argument (the "not a comparable analogy" moment for one...)

c) Speaking of which: he claims to want to avoid another argument:
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xyem: It's a mix of being annoyed but trying to avoid another argument that will dominate the day. Definitely don't need it at this stage. I've been quieter, but I wouldn't say I've been silent.
... but pressured me in order to get a response to the mafia-warned-off-the-bandwagon issue, first by posting something I interpreted as quite rude and therefore ignored (#564), then by voting for me. I responded to the vote pressure, but didn't answer the question (#597). He removed his vote anyway (#581). I can only conclude that he was more after an argument than the information.*

d) Has not yet offered any real reads - Rabbit pointed out in her original case on D2 that this is supposed to be scumtell...

Everyone: Please tear this all apart and see what sticks! I already think a) is kind of tenuous and open to interpretation, but I'm leaving it in for transparancy's sake and to see what it provokes.

Unvote Pazzer

--

* Since I brought up the subject, here's the response I typed out :

... Here're the posts I'm talking about. First, Rod's original:

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Rodzaju: Your query about the Orry wagon bears out my theory.
Newbie mafia would have jumped on the wagon.
The guiding hand warned Rabbit off, so that, when questions were asked, she would escape..
"jumped on" and "warned off".

And here are the subsequent references:

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NotFrenchYet: @Rod: thanks, that's interesting... If your theory is correct, either Xyem or Rabbit (or both?) would be scum, since they both stayed off the Orry wagon and all the other voters are still alive.
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NotFrenchYet: Rod's theory is that 2 out of 3 mafia would be on the bandwagon, because he thinks one is likely to have stayed off to avoid precisely the situation you describe. The people who didn't vote for Orry and are still alive are yourself and Rabbit, who are both newer players. Rod is targetting Rabbit pretty clearly. For my part, I voted Pazzer.
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xyem: Your conclusion doesn't follow Rods statements.

He said the newbie mafia would have "jumped off the wagon" whereas you said "they both stayed off".

Following Rods statements, it would only point at littlerabbit.. your change adds me for no reason (or the flimsy reasoning I was referring too).
Conclusions:

1) I introduce the phrase "stayed off", and you introduce the phrase "jumped off". We're actually both interpreting Rod's "warned off". This is presumably what you describe as bending.

2) Following your interpretation of Rod's statements actually points at no one, since Rabbit didn't vote for Orry on D2 (she didn't "jump off" the wagon).

3) This leads me to wonder why you reacted so strongly to a post which was not only phrased in the conditional (IF Rod is right, a and b would be mafia), but was also not followed up. I even pointed out in #550 that Rod is targetting Rabbit, and I voted for Pazzer.

4) Furthermore, thanks to the interpretation in 1), you use the occasion to not only defend youself, but to implicate Rabbit.
Posted November 09, 2011
I mean: Unvote Pazzer

-_-
Posted November 09, 2011
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NotFrenchYet: What posts there are are not that substantial, and give the impression of contributing to discussion without actually advancing any theories. E.g. post 516 gives no opinion on Pazzer while seeming to do so (my underlining) -
You just completely ignored everything after 'and', didn't you?
I was advancing a theory.. that pazzer knows more about the game setup than anyone else which was suspicious to me. I threw the idea out there to see if anyone would agree that it was suspicious.

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NotFrenchYet: Another example is the contradiction in the power roles / experienced players question.
What? My "contradictory comment" wasn't even in defense. I was just pointing out that your reasoning was very flawed. It is far more reasonable that we were still alive because we didn't have power roles than because of our votes. It has nothing to do with being experienced players or not, it was just flawed reasoning.

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NotFrenchYet: b) I'm wondering if he could be faking the post restriction...
Yes, because it is far more likely that I would mention my "fake" post restriction (#66) before finding out that other people had post restrictions which turned out to be real than it to actually be a real post restriction.

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NotFrenchYet: c) Speaking of which: he claims to want to avoid another argument: [snip]
... but pressured me in order to get a response to the mafia-warned-off-the-bandwagon issue, first by posting something I interpreted as quite rude and therefore ignored (#564), then by voting for me. I responded to the vote pressure, but didn't answer the question (#597). He removed his vote anyway (#581). I can only conclude that he was more after an argument than the information.*
You ignored that because you thought it was rude? I thought you didn't respond because you didn't want to draw attention to the fact that you did exactly what you said you wasn't going to do.
Actually, I voted for you to get a response. You gave me a response, saying that you didn't comment on it because you wanted to focus on pressuring pazzer for information. I explicitly stated that I was removing the vote so you could continue your plan. If I was after an argument, I would have continued to pester you, not dropped it so we could get some information to use. Your conclusion is, quite demonstrably, miles off.

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NotFrenchYet: d) Has not yet offered any real reads - Rabbit pointed out in her original case on D2 that this is supposed to be scumtell...
I don't have "real reads" because I'm new to the game and I haven't had any positive feedback on my suspicions. In game #7, pushing my own suspicion without feedback got a fellow townie killed. Guess what? I'm playing this one more cautiously because I don't want that to happen again!

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NotFrenchYet: Conclusions:

1) I introduce the phrase "stayed off", and you introduce the phrase "jumped off". We're actually both interpreting Rod's "warned off". This is presumably what you describe as bending.

2) Following your interpretation of Rod's statements actually points at no one, since Rabbit didn't vote for Orry on D2 (she didn't "jump off" the wagon).

3) This leads me to wonder why you reacted so strongly to a post which was not only phrased in the conditional (IF Rod is right, a and b would be mafia), but was also not followed up. I even pointed out in #550 that Rod is targetting Rabbit, and I voted for Pazzer.

4) Furthermore, thanks to the interpretation in 1), you use the occasion to not only defend youself, but to implicate Rabbit.
Very simple explanation for this:

1) Your "bending" of this was to also include those that stayed off and because you explicitly said you were following his reasoning, it looked very much like you added it only to get the finger pointing at me too (with no explanation as to why you were adding it).
2) I didn't check (and still haven't) if littlerabbit had been on the wagon or not.. I took it that she had from Rods wording (warned off).
3) I reacted so strongly because 1) you seemed to be arbitrarily targeting me and 2) your logic didn't follow Rods when you claimed you were (taking into account the above). Ask anyone who has talked to me for any period of time.. I'm a pedant and I point out when people do illogical things :P
4) Any implication was entirely accidental (see #2) so sorry to littlerabbit for that.

Now a question to you (I'm taking your unvote on pazzer to mean your not pursuing that any longer).. why have you decided to wait until now to bring up this? I could have explained this (and been corrected) ages ago :/
Posted November 09, 2011
Vitek, Muttly, Rodzaju, LittleRabbit and Xyem stand out the most for me.

Am surprised more of an effort wasn't made to lynch me. As i've provided plenty of ammo and it seems most people have doubts that i'm town. Could it be the mafia knew I needed an extra vote today.

NotFrenchYet's switch to Xyem is sudden. Saying only a few posts ago how wanted to keep pressure up on me and not get sidetracked. But now going after Xyem, unvoting me though didn't vote him.

@Rodzaju can you give an idea of the flavour for results and of your role

@NotFrenchYet did Violator give a reason he believed Orry's claim?
What do you think the situation that would explain where SirPrimalform saw little girl is?

Not sure why Vitek is trying to get people to vote. Surely if there posting and giving their reads it doesn't matter if they vote.
Posted November 09, 2011
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pazzer: @Rodzaju can you give an idea of the flavour for results and of your role
Role:
I'm old.
Apparently, the king & queen came to me seeking a fortune reading before ascending to the throne. I gave them both good fortune & this has been borne out by the many happy years they ruled before the current situation.

Night 1:
Theres a poem that I'm not going to type out (rule 9), but basically I ask the spirits of the air & land & ask about Frenchie.
I am told that she will not die today.
I should point out that I asked Joe about whether this meant the standard good fortune, or indeed that Frenchie could not be lynched.
He apologised for the misleading info & confirmed good fortune.

Night 2:
A very similar poem.
I am told that Xyem must take great care, for his future is clouded & his life could be snuffed.

Night 3:
That flippin' poem again.
I am told that you have happiness in your future.
Presumably a different result to avoid the previous confusion.
Posted November 09, 2011
So no mention of any tools of the trade or wands.
Posted November 09, 2011
None at all.
This is why I hadn't noticed it was gone....
Posted November 09, 2011
Ah, I see where you are going.
Indeed why would rabbit be able to steal something that I never needed & didn't realise I owned?
On the other hand, (assuming that she IS telling the truth) Joe would have to give her something....
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This is my favourite topic
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General discussion (archive)gog Forum Mafia #8!(1144 posts)(1144 posts)
(1144 posts)