Hence me preferring to break the restriction later after I had more useful information. Once I had solid information I could relay it and lost my ability for a day. It would be less detrimental later in the game then it is now.

The moderator is a dick. D=<

I thought about Orryyrro's claim...and something still doesn't sit right with me. Don't get me wrong, I think the claim is too convoluted to be a Mafia Falseclaiming, and do believe him, but the fact that his role had him lie...doesn't sit well with me at all.

Lynch All Liars, the proper way of handling lies about roles and the like (Townies should NEVER lie under any circumstances), is sorta thrown to the wind here, as it's one of the key things the Mafia will do to protect themselves.

Overall though, Bastard Mod in effect, and I wouldn't be surprised at what else we have to sort through.

Well, that wagon got stuck in a rut...!

- Bear in mind we still haven't lynched anyone yet.

- Bear in mind the mafia have had an entire night phase talking to each other to sort their stories out.

- Granted Joe is a strange person, but he is not stupid.
Orry's claim has far too many catches for me to think it's the product of a well-thought out role that will fit in with the rest of the game.
For instance, he is able to resume his disguise (and his abilities) after he has claimed. This make no sense. We all know who he is now, so the disguise should be ineffective.

- If we lynch Orry, whichever way he flips, we will gain a lot of information. a) Whether we have a Bastard Mod, b) whether Baz and I should be suspected (I started the wagon on D2; Baz is "confirmed" town), c) whether the people who supported/doubted the wagon should be suspected...

I'm digging my heels in here, but even with the doubts and explanations, I still think it stinks of scum. Lynch All Liars. I thought this was the only rule which could be agreed on for town, and we're disputing it!

(Fortinbras in Hamlet, incidentally, is the name of the King and his son the Prince of Norway. The King is never seen; he died before the play. The Prince is only seen at the end, when he and his men come in to overthrow the court and find everyone dead already.

This is hardly encouraging...)

Frenchie, I was thinking along the same lines. There also is the other perspective to consider: not lynching Orryyrro is opening a whole barrel of WIFOM, as there will inevitably be a massive question mark hanging over his head for the remainder of the game. And an untrustworthy cop isn't exactly helpful.

Let's say we keep him alive today and lynch someone else, and let's say he's actually telling the truth. At night, Orry can't do anything, and as such is not dangerous to the mafia at all, and of no benefit other than simply being here for town. The mafia would probably choose to keep him alive to mess with us further; nightkilling him would serve no purpose on night two. Only if he survives night three does Orry actually become interesting again, but then we would have to decide whether that was him being scum or the work of a doc/other protective role who actually believed his claim. He'd give us a result of his night three investigation, presumably, but there is absolutely no way we could work with this result unless we promptly lynched him afterwards to confirm his allegiance. (Of course if he found scum at night 3, we could lynch them, and if they flipped town, lynch Orry on the next day, but all that would be getting us dangerously close to LYLO territory.)

That makes it two nights (= two dead townies) and two lynches, one of them Orryyrro's, until we get one new, reliable result of our cop's investigations (either finding scum, which would be great, or confirming a townie, which need not be particularly helpful). Or we could lynch him right now instead and either confirm his one investigation so far (i.e. me being town) or catch our very first scum hiding behind an audaciously preposterous claim. It's a gamble, sure, but one that I'm inclined to think works out better for us -- losing a cop is bad, of course, but this particular cop's ability has already been crippled massively and pretty much beyond repair.

Please feel free to double-check my logic in case I'm not seeing something (entirely possible; after all, I helped considerably in dragging us into this mess). It's the weekend, anyway, and we're not in a hurry. This is something that can and should be discussed further.

And Orry, if you are telling the truth, I honestly feel sorry for you. It's a shitty role to have to work with.

Lots of stuff going on, will have a proper read and post my thoughts later.

It seems to me that EITHER
Baz and Orry are mafia.
My logic is that Orry marked Baz as innocent, (if Orry were mafia, why would he help town by marking a town as town? Unless WIFOM again...) Baz on the lynch Orry wagon could be a decoy.
OR
Orry is telling the truth, in which case, as Baz points out, he's now only useful if he's alive until night three. (thrown into this is Frenchie's strong lynch-Orry-now post; which i find just a bit suspicious)

I can't decide what the best course of action is at them moment, so i'll hold my vote until I've had a proper think!
But yay interesting developments!

Pretty much impossible, really. There of course is such a thing as throwing your scumbuddy under the bus, but doing it on day one by building a case from the ground up against someone who hasn't been suspected at all until then? That would be insane.

(Theoretically, I guess there could be some kind of a Mafia Lyncher with another mafia as his target, though; I'll let you decide how likely that is. For the record, I am not a lyncher.)
Either a simple misdirection or the truth:

IF Orry is town, he's merely reporting what he had learned, and targeting me for his investigations last night makes perfect sense.

IF Orry is scum, it does two things: a) the "investigation result" can be very easily used against me the moment Orry's alignment is revealed; b) by reporting the correct result about me, he might be trying to get me on his side, as I'm the only one who knows for a fact if the result is true or not. (That is if we allow the possibility of third parties in this game; if it were confirmed there are none, the scum know if the result is true or not as well. Covering all theoretical bases is tedious work.)

How so?
If Orry is mafia we know nothing about baz, but he will be more likely to be town as it's safer to mark town as town when falseclaiming cop then to mark scumbuddy as town, IMO.
If Orry is town, why do you think bazilišek is scum? Unless Orryy is insane (and he could be!) he he got town result on baz.


I agree with baz that Orryy is useless right know and we can't verify his next investigation results at least until end of day 4 which is really late. Only 2 games so far reached Day 6 here and leaving possible scum in our midst for so long could very well spell our doom.
And if his day 4 result (from N3) will be innocent on someone we will be non the wiser. And tzhis is only we presume he won't get NK'd for 2 nights.
So I start to think that he is useless until he's dead.

What about vigging him? Is it bad idea?


Also, don't be so harsh on Joe, please. We don't know how the roles clicks together until we know the whole setup so it's useless (and quite mean) to accuse him of bastard-moddery.

I agree with baz, we can't really not lynch Orry now. If he is our cop, he's not going to be useful until day four when there will probably be about 7 people left. If we haven't hit any mafia by then then we'll pretty much be at LYLO. And all that time there's a good chance he is mafia. I don't think we can afford to take that chance.

I said either both of them are, or neither of them. Based on Orry falseclaiming Baz as town. But I agree that Orry could have just truthfully pointed Baz as town, but I don't see why he would- that's just me, maybe i'm missing something because I'm unfamiliar with the intricacies of forum mafia.
I never said that if Orry is town, Baz is scum, that's just silly.

IMO Baz is likely to be town.

*looks up vigging* it's not on the mafiawiki, could you please clarify?

I agree with you about holding our peace with joe until we know what's really going on.

@Baz: in which case it seems that Orry is more likely to be town.

What would we gain from lynching Orry if he is town? We would know that Baz is town for definite. We would have also lost the potential for a second investigation.
Looking back at Orry's posts, I'm inclined to think he is town.
He was quick to claim in post 232, which says to me that he had recieved a suggestion about claiming from mod. (flimsey I know, but in his position I'm not sure I would have claimed unless I'd been given specific instructions about claiming that put the idea of early-claiming in my head. But then, if he had received instructions, would that not make him less likely to claim in the first place?)
In post 238 Orry maybe hints that he is more than vanilla: "killing me will do more harm than not killing me" - meaning he's either thought very far ahead with this whole thing, or he is in fact just what he says.

I think we'd do better trying to find a scum-proper today than lynching Orry for having a complicated role.

Your vote of confidence is overwhelming. ;P As I mentioned, personally I am 100% convinced. There are too many holes.

I'm going to deliver on that promised read-through and see if anyone put their foot in it earlier in D2 - just give me an hour or so to out my notes together...

He claimed then because he was at L-2. There's no rule saying you have to claim then, but it's generally accepted as a good time to claim.

About the "killing me will do more harm than not killing me" thing, that doesn't necessarily mean he's thought that far ahead. He may have just said that to buy time and thought up the info he gave us today during the night.

Oh and as Rodzaju sort of explains in his post, vig is short for vigilante, so vigging would be... vigilante...ing.