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timppu: ... DRM in a game I have bought does not give me similar perks, only more inconvenience as a legit customer.
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Trilarion: Unfortunately you are in a minority. Witcher 2 sold at least five times more copies through Steam than through GOG afair.
People didn't choose the DRM version due to the DRM. They chose it _regardless_ of it (possibly because they didn't even know of a DRM-free option, or just because they rather keep all their games only in one digital store, in this case Steam).

It seems to be a common misconception that achievements, cloud saving, auto update etc. require a forced DRM to everyone. After all, even Steam has "DRM-free games", which have those extra features.

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Trilarion: Even worse often there is no such choice because there isn't any DRM free version. At least then most people (my estimate) will finally accept DRM.
I have 200+ games on Steam. Have I "accepted" DRM? Or am I merely trying to tolerate it, and still avoid it the best I can?

Yet another misconception that everyone who has Steam games is completely fine with the DRM, or even prefer DRM.

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timppu: ... Actually the main complaint (I hope) was that they might prosecute people who had not pirated The Witcher 2. But if someone was really defending the actual pirates (as in, they shouldn't be prosecuted), shame on them.
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Trilarion: You'll always face the chance of getting a false negative (unless you have total control). You cannot just go only after the pirates.
Courts to decide who is the pirate and who is not. Do you have some reported cases of non-pirates going to jail or paying fines on court order?

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timppu: ... Come again? DRM is needed in order to prosecute a pirate? You must be joking.
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Trilarion: In a way I would actually say yes. GOG is all about not fighting piracy. So how would you prosecute piracy of GOG games?

In a way it seems that DRM free is the cheap option when you think that DRM is not effective. It might be less of an ideology, but just a practical thing to do when you capitulate to piracy.
Third misconception, that GOG or DRM-free means the same as pro-piracy.
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amok: However, if you want to track versions you need it to somehow verify itself, and that is only possible through some sort of DRM.
And what exactly is that supposed to achieve?
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timppu: ... DRM in a game I have bought does not give me similar perks, only more inconvenience as a legit customer.
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Trilarion: Unfortunately you are in a minority. Witcher 2 sold at least five times more copies through Steam than through GOG afair.

Even worse often there is no such choice because there isn't any DRM free version. At least then most people (my estimate) will finally accept DRM.

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timppu: ... Actually the main complaint (I hope) was that they might prosecute people who had not pirated The Witcher 2. But if someone was really defending the actual pirates (as in, they shouldn't be prosecuted), shame on them.
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Trilarion: You'll always face the chance of getting a false negative (unless you have total control). You cannot just go only after the pirates.

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timppu: ... Come again? DRM is needed in order to prosecute a pirate? You must be joking.
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Trilarion: In a way I would actually say yes. GOG is all about not fighting piracy. So how would you prosecute piracy of GOG games?

In a way it seems that DRM free is the cheap option when you think that DRM is not effective. It might be less of an ideology, but just a practical thing to do when you capitulate to piracy.
Not really fair to to compare Steam vs GOG sales, since buying the Steam version also go you the GOG version gratis.
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amok: However, if you want to track versions you need it to somehow verify itself, and that is only possible through some sort of DRM.
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Randalator: And what exactly is that supposed to achieve?
http://www.gog.com/forum/general/gog_and_peoples_perspective_on_it/post225
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Pheace: And luckily by that time most of it will probably be cheap to regain, and quite possibly in better versions than the ones I originally bought.
Unless, of course, the legal matters are again in yet another clusterfuck, preventing anyone from selling them anymore. Or in someone's hands who just couldn't care less, like Disney with their older LucasArts games.

But wait, then people can just pirate those games for free, right? And as we know, the old classic games just magically appear on the internet from thin air, without anyone actually preserving them before locally on their own hard drives?

Don't come knocking on my door for any pirate copies, though. :)
Post edited October 07, 2013 by timppu
That doesn't explain anything. What is the point of using DRM to track legitimate customers beyond knowing how many there are? You can do that by looking at the sales figures of all major outlets. And since pirates don't appear on the radar at all, you can't deduce anything from those numbers anyway.
Post edited October 07, 2013 by Randalator
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Randalator: That doesn't explain anything. What is the point of using DRM to track legitimate customers? You can do that by looking at the sales figures of all major outlets. And since pirates don't appear on the radar at all, you can't deduce anything from those numbers anyway.
The whole Witcher IP thingy would not have happened if it was DRM'd and the users legitimate copies was tracked by CDPR (or someone else)... the whole thing there happened was because CDPR accused legitimate users of piracy.
...
Post edited December 14, 2013 by user deleted
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amok: ...With a DRM then it is at least possible to say "I am playing a legit version". ...
Also with DRM free I can say this. I just need to show the email I got from GOG. A proof of purchase doesn't have to be DRM, a simple receipt should be sufficient.
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timppu: Unless, of course, the legal matters are again in yet another clusterfuck, preventing anyone from selling them anymore. Or in someone's hands who just couldn't care less, like Disney with their older LucasArts games.

But wait, then people can just pirate those games for free, right? And as we know, the old classic games just magically appear on the internet from thin air, without anyone actually preserving them before locally on their own hard drives?

Don't come knocking on my door for any pirate copies, though. :)
True, despite the growing culture right now where classics are putting back on sale there might be some rarer cases where I wouldn't be able to get them at the time. It'll require patience then, or replacing (or already have been replaced) with newer games that do the same thing or hopefully even do it better.
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amok: ... The whole Witcher IP thingy would not have happened if it was DRM'd and the users legitimate copies was tracked by CDPR (or someone else)... the whole thing there happened was because CDPR accused legitimate users of piracy.
Not sure about this. I didn't see any convincing reports about legitimate users being accused. I would like to see more evidence. I guess it was just unpopular for some reason, only CDPR really knows what went wrong. Also here DRM doesn't matter. Whether you use Steam or GOG there is never a reason to use torrents for downloading your game.
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amok: ...With a DRM then it is at least possible to say "I am playing a legit version". ...
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Trilarion: Also with DRM free I can say this. I just need to show the email I got from GOG. A proof of purchase doesn't have to be DRM, a simple receipt should be sufficient.
but that do not stop CDPR treating legitimate customers as pirates until the customer managed to procure evidence that they had a legitimate copy. Talk about a publisher treating customers as thieves? :)

(and what if I had accidentally deleted that email? or moved email services and can no longer access it?)
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amok: The whole Witcher IP thingy would not have happened if it was DRM'd and the users legitimate copies was tracked by CDPR (or someone else)... the whole thing there happened was because CDPR accused legitimate users of piracy.
That would have happened all the same because that whole IP tracking thing is very wonky to begin with. I know because I was personally involved in a case where faulty IP tracking could have cost a life if the person behind the IP had actually intended to commit suicide instead of just threatening to do so.
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Trilarion: Also with DRM free I can say this. I just need to show the email I got from GOG. A proof of purchase doesn't have to be DRM, a simple receipt should be sufficient.
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amok: but that do not stop CDPR treating legitimate customers as pirates until the customer managed to procure evidence that they had a legitimate copy. Talk about a publisher treating customers as thieves? :)

(and what if I had accidentally deleted that email? or moved email services and can no longer access it?)
Short answer: print them before. Long answer: If you accidentally deleted that email you ask GOG to send it to you again and if you moved email services you are as screwed as with Steam because also there accounts are based on emails. I think it's reasonable to expect customers to keep such documents save. It's standard in every shop where you buy something physically. It should work in the internet world as well.

And CDPR never went after me (legitimate customer) because I never gave them reason too. I just downloaded Witcher 2 from GOG and everything was fine. So I never had to prove that I own Witcher 2 although I could have if needed.
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amok: ... The whole Witcher IP thingy would not have happened if it was DRM'd and the users legitimate copies was tracked by CDPR (or someone else)... the whole thing there happened was because CDPR accused legitimate users of piracy.
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Trilarion: Not sure about this. I didn't see any convincing reports about legitimate users being accused. I would like to see more evidence. I guess it was just unpopular for some reason, only CDPR really knows what went wrong. Also here DRM doesn't matter. Whether you use Steam or GOG there is never a reason to use torrents for downloading your game.
that's because CDPR quickly backed down and stopped the whole thing when the process they used became known (a supposedly 100% accurate IP tracking system...), due to the amount of backlash it created. Now CDPR states that "pirates are just misunderstood customers"... quite a big turn around. It do not smell slightly of spin at all.
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amok: but that do not stop CDPR treating legitimate customers as pirates until the customer managed to procure evidence that they had a legitimate copy. Talk about a publisher treating customers as thieves? :)

(and what if I had accidentally deleted that email? or moved email services and can no longer access it?)
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Trilarion: Short answer: print them before.
I am doing a PhD, I got print outs flying everywhere... god, no more papers to keep track of, please.
Post edited October 07, 2013 by amok