Posted August 20, 2010
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Arteveld
Vote colour.
Registered: Dec 2009
From Poland
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Gundato
The Peepe
Registered: Sep 2008
From United States
Posted August 20, 2010
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Again, you're misrepresenting my point by making it seem broader than it actually was. I've only just pointed this out and you're doing it again immediately.
Okay. What did I misrepresent? All I did was point out that the foundation for your entire post was incorrect. I merely pointed this out.
Now, since you acknowledge that a turn-based game can easily work cross-platform (which was my entire point), we have nothing to discuss.
But I would thank you to not misrepresent my point by making it seem like a completely different one. I've only just pointed this out, and you're doing it again immediately.
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destroyermaker
damaged lemon
Registered: Nov 2008
From Canada
Posted August 21, 2010
nrggg
Post edited August 21, 2010 by chautemoc
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lowyhong
resident bff
Registered: Dec 2008
From Singapore
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Andy_Panthro
Not the Avatar
Registered: Oct 2008
From United Kingdom
Posted August 21, 2010
Will this thread turn back into a discussion about Jagged Alliance 2, or will it wither and die?
YOU DECIDE!
YOU DECIDE!
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Navagon
Easily Persuaded
Registered: Dec 2008
From United Kingdom
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Vestin
only_droid@town
Registered: Sep 2008
From Poland
Posted August 21, 2010
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He said a CONSOLE TBS game designed to work on CONSOLES can be nice.
He even stressed that because of that console-centric approach, such games AREN'T EASY to port.
His general point was that making cross-platform games most likely will screw up the UI of the platform it is ported TO.
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Gundato
The Peepe
Registered: Sep 2008
From United States
Posted August 21, 2010
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He even stressed that because of that console-centric approach, such games AREN'T EASY to port.
His general point was that making cross-platform games most likely will screw up the UI of the platform it is ported TO.
That is just it though, TBS is kind of one of the few genres where it is easy to do cross-platform. Add a mouse and you basically have it covered. Obviously it won't be perfect, but it isn't really like you are going to have to cut things or ruin things. It just might be more mouse-heavy, as opposed to hotkey heavy (which a lot of people prefer anyway).
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Navagon
Easily Persuaded
Registered: Dec 2008
From United Kingdom
Posted August 21, 2010
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He even stressed that because of that console-centric approach, such games AREN'T EASY to port.
His general point was that making cross-platform games most likely will screw up the UI of the platform it is ported TO.
You're wasting your time. As was I. Thank you for confirming that my posts weren't complete gibberish though.
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Gundato
The Peepe
Registered: Sep 2008
From United States
Posted August 21, 2010
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He even stressed that because of that console-centric approach, such games AREN'T EASY to port.
His general point was that making cross-platform games most likely will screw up the UI of the platform it is ported TO.
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Fine, Let's ignore your attempt to change the subject and attack me on something where you just play to the crowd and the like.
Why don't you think a TBS can work cross-platform? What about the UI makes it particularly difficult?
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Vestin
only_droid@town
Registered: Sep 2008
From Poland
Posted August 21, 2010
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That's like saying "it's so easy to make pants for women - just paint them pink".
Both in the generalization (just add a mouse) and oversimplification (everything else will stay and feel the same).
The interface has a profound impact on how we perceive things (or even people :>) we interact with. It's not like they make the game and then add it for the end user; no - it's an integral part throughout all the development because of the constant testing.
BTW - have you seen Blizzard's latest vid on artisans in Diablo 3 ? Totally different genre, but notice the UI.
Notice how general of a it word is. It's basically the opposite side of "interactivity". Interactivity is WHAT you can do with something, while the interface is HOW it can be done.
Sure - on the hardware level, you might say that the interface is either the keyboard/mouse or some console specific controller... but that's just half the truth. The player uses the hardware interface to interact with the software interface to interact with the game's world. Notice the amount of "inter-" above.
The software interface can even have multiple layers (not always above each other either).
(...)
I've suddenly reached a very abstract understanding of the significance of interfaces in computer games, while at the same time realizing that it might take a LOT of time to very vividly explain and exemplify everything both of us most likely know all too well from first-hand experience. Why don't you simply accept the thought that using a cursor to select things works very differently on a mouse and would be pointless to try to translate into some joystick flicking... and vice versa ? Just think of pretty much any PC game and how it's played - the reason why the SAME thing wouldn't work on a console is pretty obvious, as well as how absurdly difficult would would it be to make a UI barely playable.
Also - resolution and display distance make lots of small icons hardly appealing.
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I don't think you understand the concept of "ignoring" too well...
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I hate to use this argument, because of its sheer unreliability but - wouldn't there be such games if it were truly a good idea ? If there are - show me their interfaces.
I really have trouble imagining, say, Heroes of Might and Magic on a console. Sure - the turn-based gameplay gives you as much time as you'd like to struggle away... But what's the point ?
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Gundato
The Peepe
Registered: Sep 2008
From United States
Posted August 21, 2010
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Both in the generalization (just add a mouse) and oversimplification (everything else will stay and feel the same).
The interface has a profound impact on how we perceive things (or even people :>) we interact with. It's not like they make the game and then add it for the end user; no - it's an integral part throughout all the development because of the constant testing.
BTW - have you seen Blizzard's latest vid on artisans in Diablo 3 ? Totally different genre, but notice the UI.
Notice how general of a it word is. It's basically the opposite side of "interactivity". Interactivity is WHAT you can do with something, while the interface is HOW it can be done.
Sure - on the hardware level, you might say that the interface is either the keyboard/mouse or some console specific controller... but that's just half the truth. The player uses the hardware interface to interact with the software interface to interact with the game's world. Notice the amount of "inter-" above.
The software interface can even have multiple layers (not always above each other either).
(...)
I've suddenly reached a very abstract understanding of the significance of interfaces in computer games, while at the same time realizing that it might take a LOT of time to very vividly explain and exemplify everything both of us most likely know all too well from first-hand experience. Why don't you simply accept the thought that using a cursor to select things works very differently on a mouse and would be pointless to try to translate into some joystick flicking... and vice versa ? Just think of pretty much any PC game and how it's played - the reason why the SAME thing wouldn't work on a console is pretty obvious, as well as how absurdly difficult would would it be to make a UI barely playable.
Also - resolution and display distance make lots of small icons hardly appealing.
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I don't think you understand the concept of "ignoring" too well...
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I hate to use this argument, because of its sheer unreliability but - wouldn't there be such games if it were truly a good idea ? If there are - show me their interfaces.
I really have trouble imagining, say, Heroes of Might and Magic on a console. Sure - the turn-based gameplay gives you as much time as you'd like to struggle away... But what's the point ?
Most of the first half of your post is very correct. You are not going to get a AAA interface if you make it with both in mind. But you can damned sure get two (or three (or four)) A interfaces. Especially because turn-based strategy only requires two buttons and a way to move a cursor. The more you add, the more convenient you make it (until you get to the point that you made it even more complex than a proper flight sim).
As for examples: You are right on the grounds that there haven't been too many. But there also haven't been too many turn-based games in recent years in the first place.
As for HoMM: That is the same basic interface as Disciples, right? Grid. Select action, click destination. Done.
Look at Final Fantasy Tactics and (probably) those Fire Emblem games. Same basic concepts, work beautifully on consoles.
Hell, come to think of it, consoles have kind of been the bastion of turn-based gaming for the past decade. People who are angry about the lack of them on the PC really need to go buy a gameboy or something. Is kind of funny. A genre we all (myself included, until Squad Command) thought would not work off the PC is actually booming on consoles and handhelds.
And, as a simple example of a B-level interface that could work on PC and console for JA2:
Move the cursor on the map to select the destination of an action. Upon clicking the destination, a simple pop-up menu appears with the pertinent options (fire, move, throw, etc). On consoles and handhelds, you move the cursor with the stick/d-pad. For PC and Mac, you move it with a mouse. For touch-phones, you finger it.
As far as handling inventory: Click another button and deal with it there. Let's face it, the inventory was clunky in JA2 as well. There has NEVER been a good way to handle inventory in any of the turn-based games :P
But yeah, if I can come up with that in two minutes of typing, a competent game developer can come up with an A-level (or better) interface in the amount of time it will take to go gold. Maybe it won't be AAA, but most of the interfaces we deal with on a daily basis aren't AAA.
Seriously though. Go watch a youtube video for Final Fantasy Tactics (Advance will look better). If you are still not convinced, go buy a GBA/pirate the damned thing and give it a shot. Even when playing it via an emulator on the PC, it is a pretty decent interface. Not perfect, but just imagine if you could click stuff instead of using the d-pad.
Again, I am not saying all games can do this. I still don't see any way an RTS could work on a console (although, evidently, a few have?). And something as complex as a 4x game is still a bit beyond me (although, I hear the recent Civ was good). But tactical-level turn-based strategy games are kind of the bread and butter of consoles and handhelds.
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Vestin
only_droid@town
Registered: Sep 2008
From Poland
Posted August 21, 2010
I'm glad you were able to verify my information xD.
I almost feel silly for not using "as we all know" instead of "in my opinion" - guess my university should try harder ;P.
Sorry, but stacks of letters like these remind my of either battery types or breast sizes.
Guess that fits nicely with my "people have interfaces too" remark...
On a more serious note - why the hell do people feel the need to add more As ? Wasn't ONE enough ? Inflation ruined the rating letters ?
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/me breaks down crying
No, they DON'T ! They also need THINGS TO CLICK ON ! IN_A_CERTAIN_WAY.
Also - KEYBOARD SHORTCUTS.
Which means that the smallest possible amount makes for the least bearable yet working solution. I'm not sure that simply adding things helps and it's definitely NOT a linear progression... Still - we should aim for more than the bare minimum.
I couldn't say, because I've never played Disciples. Not yet, at least.
This describes pretty much ANYTHING in ANY game. To perform an action you choose
1* What action
2* How (optional, there may be one way)
3* Where (optional, the target may be predetermined)
In an FPS you choose at weapon, where you want to shoot and how long... Still - the interface is very different.
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Their interfaces might make a PC gamer cringe.
The mouse gives the gamer precision. Being close to a high resolution screen - room for small icons and a lot of text. The keyboard gives us lots of shortcuts and the possibility of manually entering numbers (or words).
The grid helps with the lack of precision, but getting to the desired location still takes forever, compared to simply using the mouse.
That does neither mean there can't be, nor that we have to settle for what the consoles have to offer.
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I just have. Holy crap - that's a LOT of clicking through nested menus @_@. It would be SO much easier to simply have shortcuts for the most commonly used spells/abilities/whatever on 1-0, some others for menus and submenus, MMB for turning and tilting the area...
I don't HAVE TO imagine. I'm a PC gamer - I click stuff and things happen :3.
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They might be, but the platform constraints mean that directly "translating" the control scheme would be a disaster.
I'll give you a little carrot, though - the radial interface for voice commands (vide Left4Dead) is something I can live with and I imagine it being somewhat related to consoles. Then again - having radial menus for EVERYTHING (vide Brink, maybe ?) sounds a little overwhelming.
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Gundato
The Peepe
Registered: Sep 2008
From United States
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Vestin
only_droid@town
Registered: Sep 2008
From Poland
Posted August 21, 2010
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Move the mouse to the grid of the desired destination. Click the proceed button (LMB). Or click the cancel button (RMB).
Everything else is fluff.
Wow. Just "wow".
First of all - games can have lengthly tutorials.
Besides... Sometimes it's awesome to have a game which forces you to read the manual. That means that there's likely lots of stuff you can do. For example: Patrician 2.
Hey - I'm not BIASED against console games. I simply don't play any ;P. I also don't like them influencing my PC games...
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Click the dragon, receive loot... Precision gives more choices, diversity, freedom. Place your "dumbed down games" argument here.
Yeah, with the little thing we like to call a "parser". This was mostly due to hardware limitations, I imagine. Still - these games have their charm...
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Ah, Wizardry... I only briefly played the 8th installment, but the interface was quite nice and PCish.
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World map.
Also - snipers.
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Yeah, I know that all too well. Two people on the same tile would be like sex...
Heh... I can't help but think "Your tile or mine ?" xD...
Also - is this the only kind of research you wanted me to do ? To find out that JA-style TBSes have grid ?
Really ?
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They are not. They are luxuries. That still doesn't mean I don't want to have them.
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Not as annoying as clicking through all the menus every few seconds just to reach that fireball. I prefer 1-LMB.
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Can't you switch characters, interact with the environment, change between running/walking and standing up/ducking/laying, aim for a bodypart, etc ?
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Just look it up on YT. It keeps spinning...
Also - leave the isometric camera to Diablo 3, I want to be able to adjust my view the way *I* like it.
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Consoles are simply a limited piece of hardware with a weird controller. I want neither of those features impacting the way my games are made.
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Just find someone naive enough to make a game like that and see how people react.
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They might not know the reason, but I doubt they'd overlook things that would suck about the UI.
Quite so. You know why there's never cross-platform play :] ?