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General discussion (archive)Genre Inequality(120 posts)(120 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted January 21, 2013
I admit I'm pretty biased against the fantasy genre in books, games and movies. On the one hand I'm always drawn to fanciful tales of magic and monsters, on the other hand I'm often quite disappointed with them, because they hardly ever manage (or even try) to draw me in with exciting and refreshing storytelling. They just keep on repeating the same tropes and even when they're original, the originality lies in some small details or areas I'm not that interested in.

In German the translation for "fantasy" and "imagination" is the same word (and maybe they can be used as synonyms in English, too, on certain occasions?), but for me the fantasy genre is often antonymic to "imagination", because most of the time I get the feeling that I've heard it all before. But maybe that's part of what it's actually about and I just don't get. I mean, fairy tales and mythology also have reoccurring structures and repetitive tropes. And like others said, I think authors don't just use these tropes out of laziness but because a lot of people seem to love and expect them, and maybe because the authors themselves enjoy them, too. Other genres like whodunit or thrillers have pretty rigid structures and tropes as well and are also incredibly popular.

Still, personally I don't really like the fantasy genre's emphasis on epic tales that seem to be more about worlds and wars and gods and races etc. and less about personal stories and mystery. (But I still put up with them out of boredom. ;) And I find it easier to bear in games than in books, for some reason.)

Anyway, I agree with Titanium. Apart from fantasy being a popular genre that doesn't involve too much risks, I think the combat system is also a huge factor (it's certainly no coincidence and not just due to the changing times that the gameplay of Mass Effect is more akin to a shooter than a turn-based RPG for oldschool gamers). Still, that's no excuse for not trying to create original worlds and stories that feature medieval weapons. :P
Post edited January 21, 2013 by Leroux
Posted January 21, 2013
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keeveek: There is one thing I always find extremely funny in "medieval" RPGs like Morrowind. When you play different games, they tell you "this happens a 1000 years after the prequel" , but... there is no technological advancement whatsoever.

Sometimes they have better armor, but yeah, it still looks exactly the same :D Are people in RPGs so retarded that they can't push their civilizations anywhere forward?
That's because the aliens never visited them :P
Posted January 21, 2013
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P1na: During the actual middle age in Europe, there was very little advancement in about a thousand years. Add races that live centuries, and it isn't that strange. Not that I disagree in that adding some advancement would be interesting.
But they didn't invent Christianity in Fantasy RPG games. :P But you know, even without technological advance, there should be at LEAST some fashion changes. Not like in Star Wars series when after thousands of years they still wear the same clothes... :P
Post edited January 21, 2013 by keeveek
Posted January 21, 2013
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P1na: During the actual middle age in Europe, there was very little advancement in about a thousand years. Add races that live centuries, and it isn't that strange. Not that I disagree in that adding some advancement would be interesting.
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keeveek: But they didn't invent Christianity in Fantasy RPG games. :P But you know, even without technological advance, there should be at LEAST some fashion changes. Not like in Star Wars series when after thousands of years they still wear the same clothes... :P
This is where Steampunk comes in; a nice crossover from midieval/Tolkein to Fallout to Anachronox. Of course whether it's merited or not I claim the Thief series (especially 2) with being the benchmark for Steampunk. Of course Thief is FPS and doesn't belong in this thread but since when have I ever stayed with the actual topic!?
Posted January 21, 2013
Popularity and the resulting influx of non-geeks killed fantasy. When the old school ruled the genre, fantasy was medieval Europe with magic - bad and stupid, but not completely without artistic merit. Now it's made for people who do not want to know anything by people who do not want to research anything and just churn out thrice-derivative crap. Hence the proliferation of fantasy. It is extremely cheap to make; pile on some tropes and you're good to go. It's no longer medieval Europe with magic, it's an illiterate kid's idea of medieval Europe with magic. I'm fed up with it. I'm fed up like you wouldn't believe. I want Tome, or Runequest, or Earthdawn, or, failing that, just the polearm table. Screw modern fantasy. Until I see an improvement, I'm going back to MM1-5, DHoU, and good old Goldboxes.
Posted January 21, 2013
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tinyE: And one more thing: stop putting all the dungeon crawlers in dungeons!
Yes! I'm also tired of all the platforms in platformers, fighting in fighters, shooting in shooters.
Posted January 21, 2013
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danteveli: I have played bout 100 or more jRPGs and I can say they are way more original than the stuff done in the west.
And if you have played about 100 or more wRPGs you should be able to see that originality-wise it's juuust about the same. Don't worry, I used to say what you say now as well. It's not true.
Posted January 21, 2013
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Starmaker: Popularity and the resulting influx of non-geeks killed fantasy. When the old school ruled the genre, fantasy was medieval Europe with magic - bad and stupid, but not completely without artistic merit. Now it's made for people who do not want to know anything by people who do not want to research anything and just churn out thrice-derivative crap. Hence the proliferation of fantasy. It is extremely cheap to make; pile on some tropes and you're good to go. It's no longer medieval Europe with magic, it's an illiterate kid's idea of medieval Europe with magic. I'm fed up with it. I'm fed up like you wouldn't believe. I want Tome, or Runequest, or Earthdawn, or, failing that, just the polearm table. Screw modern fantasy. Until I see an improvement, I'm going back to MM1-5, DHoU, and good old Goldboxes.
Where's the medieval Europe in Forgotten Realms? I think FR has always been kind of lackluster and stupid, it's basically "anything is possible, just pile up one hidden civilization on top of another", and it's the most popular setting of D&D, which existed even before CRPGs. So if what you say is true, it's not a recent development but one that was there right from the start. The only difference is that back in the days it was still something new because they were the first to do stupid fantasy as a videogame and partly invented the tropes instead of just repeating them.
Post edited January 21, 2013 by Leroux
Posted January 21, 2013
To a lot of people RPG = fantasy. It's annoying, but it's true. I would guess its rooted in their RPG learning experiences being in something fantasy.
Posted January 21, 2013
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keeveek: There is one thing I always find extremely funny in "medieval" RPGs like Morrowind. When you play different games, they tell you "this happens a 1000 years after the prequel" , but... there is no technological advancement whatsoever.

Sometimes they have better armor, but yeah, it still looks exactly the same :D Are people in RPGs so retarded that they can't push their civilizations anywhere forward?
Yeah, that question always bugged me as well whenever I was confronted with a medieval(ish) fantasy RPG setting. Then again actual human civilisation also goes back thousands of years, so I suppose with a bit of suspension of disbelief such scenarios are somewhat acceptable. Although there was also Arcanum, which tried to present a magical fantasy world on the brink of technological revolution, but that was more than 10 years ago, and nothing like that has been tried ever since in computer RPGs.

I wouldn't say that what I'd like to see in an RPG is an accurate and realistic representation of medieval Europe, (or Asia or whichever culture you prefer, although I would not object to it either), but rather a more magically toned down setting, with consistent rules and limitations. Personally, I would also welcome it if they did away with most of the typical fantasy races and used different and varied human characters instead. Even though I am not a fan of the Elder Scrolls games, I like that they have 4 distinct human races to chose from.

As for JRPGs, well...I'd have to say they are even more inconsistent when it comes to the setting than their western counterparts. They usually just mix together magic, technology, swords, guns, giant robots, spaceships, dinosaurs etc - basically anything that could catch the attention of a nerdy audience - without any coherent structure and rules.

Then again I have sort of given up on RPGs as a video game genre and do not play them too often anymore.
Post edited January 21, 2013 by szablev
Posted January 21, 2013
I've started to get worn out on fantasy RPG's, there's very few I'll bother to play any more. This mostly applies to MMOG's which seem to take great joy in copy pasting a great deal but even something like Kingdoms of Amalur only got about an hour of playtime before I nearly fell asleep at my keyboard, it hasn't been played since and I have no intention of ever going back to it. Nowadays I much prefer the setting to be more... I suppose the correct term would be 'exotic' like steampunk or sci fi. Failing that, if I do try a fantasy RPG these days it had better be something with a damned good story that draws me in right away.
Post edited January 21, 2013 by Cormoran
Posted January 21, 2013
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StingingVelvet:
What you said. Even on these forums I've read posts from people declaring that they don't like a certain RPG because it strays from conventions, therefore making it a terrible game for... not conforming?
Posted January 21, 2013
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ShadowWulfe: What you said. Even on these forums I've read posts from people declaring that they don't like a certain RPG because it strays from conventions, therefore making it a terrible game for... not conforming?
Check out a dedicated RPG forum like RPG Watch or RPG Codex. The screams of "fantasy or GTFO" are deafening.
Posted January 21, 2013
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keeveek: There is one thing I always find extremely funny in "medieval" RPGs like Morrowind. When you play different games, they tell you "this happens a 1000 years after the prequel" , but... there is no technological advancement whatsoever.

Sometimes they have better armor, but yeah, it still looks exactly the same :D Are people in RPGs so retarded that they can't push their civilizations anywhere forward?
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tinyE: Of topic but similar...
Ever notice that all the ships in SW Episodes 1-3 are way sleaker and more modern looking than the ones in Episodes 4-6?
They don't make them like they used to...
Posted January 21, 2013
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Leroux: I admit I'm pretty biased against the fantasy genre in books, games and movies. On the one hand I'm always drawn to fanciful tales of magic and monsters, on the other hand I'm often quite disappointed with them, because they hardly ever manage (or even try) to draw me in with exciting and refreshing storytelling. They just keep on repeating the same tropes and even when they're original, the originality lies in some small details or areas I'm not that interested in.
Try reading The Lies of Locke Lamora. It managed to surpise me amidst all that generic Thones stuff we get these days. Or perhaps The Dresden Files which takes place in modern day Chicago.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)Genre Inequality(120 posts)(120 posts)
(120 posts)