Our children would go hungry before they'd take formula. They wanted the real thing, or nothing at all.

If you've ever tasted formula, you'll understand. Awful stuff, even before the Chinese decided it was OK to put poison in it.

I said its nasty but if the mother can't produce then what would you recommend?

Yes, that is the picture of China most Westerners seem intent on imprinting in their brain.

But this isn't a complete picture of China.

At best, this is a transient state of affair resulting from their cultural revolution (again, the stress point for that revolution was Western made as is the model they inspired themselves from).

The Chinese live with population density pressures that Western nations never had to contend with.

I think that to a large extent, they are more familiar with rules and limitations than we are in most Western cultures.

I don't necessarily resent the West for forcing themselves on China, but the whole opium trade business was a new low for me.

I am skeptical that had the roles been reversed, China would have done the same to us.

I think you got it backwards. The famine was not intentional, rather it was a result of a regime reshuffling at a time when their population density was at an all time high.

Technically, they do that in at least one Western nation that I know of, it's called capital punishment.

Yeah, well, put yourself in their situation and see how well you manage it.

They needed to do something about it.

Cite your sources.

Their working conditions are improving.

Now, you're just contradicting yourself.

You might disapprove of their population control, but they have one.

They will never live the American dream (at least, not for the next 300 years).

Again, their population density won't allow for it and I think to a large extent, we should observe how they deal with that problem and learn a few things from them.

To be fair, they have the world's second biggest population.

I'd be curious to know how their military per person rates again, say, they US.

Anyhow, I think history has shown (the whole opium trade mess) that they need to be able to defend themselves.

Doesn't matter. We are not pursuing it aggressively. They are.


Yes, they have some improvements to make, but I wouldn't denigrate their whole culture because of it.

Ditto.

Well, in that case, it's all you can do. But it's not so simple: formula producers use their advertising funds to persuade mothers that they should not breastfeed, but use formula instead. Even in places where families cannot afford the formula or do not have clean water to reconstitute it. Even in places where formula is deliberately adulterated because the primitive state of food regulation connives at it.

There is no widespread inability to lactate such as justifies the infant formula business or the development of genetically modified cows.

I agree in part, however some women aren't able to breastfeed (single working mothers) or can't lactate. While the use of formula is rampant groups like la leche would almost take away a woman's right to raise her baby as she sees fit. I don't like giving your child a steady McDonalds diet but I'm not going to ban it either.

Magnitus is defending China? Really?

No that's false. Legal raw milk sales are only available in a few states with more being legal through cow share programs which skirt the law by making you the owner of a part of the cow.

The fact is, the FDA does say that all raw milk is unfit for consumption no matter where you get it from. Doesn't matter whether it's from mothers milk or cows, thats what they say.

It says a lot about industrial farms that they can't sell it to anyone without nuking it first. They treat their cows like shit.

Anything other than raw mothers milk is bad for human babies, but raw cows milk (especially if it mimics human) is a whole lot better than pasteurized soy milk that they recommend for babies,effectively denying their immune systems the ability to strengthen efficiently.

Sale of raw milk is illegal in Canada too. The loophole of course is to join a cow/goat co-op and essentially buy shares in the animals instead of the milk itself.

The reason sale of raw milk became illegal AFAIK is because the machinery industry uses to extract the milk irritates the udders so the milk contains blood and puss.

Since I grew up in California, where raw milk sale has always been legal, maybe my view is too local, but last time I checked, only about 6 states actually prohibited dealings in raw milk.

In California, raw-milk dairies like Alta-Dena and Stueve's, were insuranced, not legislated, out of business. No insurer wants to pick up the liability policy for dairies that have been linked, repeatedly, to listeriosis outbreaks.

Cow's milk is unsuitable enough for human babies in any form, raw or nuked, that it shouldn't even be under consideration.