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jamyskis: Dead Island wasn't banned. I think it had a brief stay on List B, then got moved back to List A.
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Ivory&Gold: For what it's worth, these are the games whose uncensored versions are banned in Germany (on account of how they depict violence):

Condemned
Condemned 2
Dead Rising
Left 4 Dead 2
Manhunt
Manhunt 2
Scarface – The world is yours
Soldier of Fortune: Payback
Wolfenstein

As far as I know, the only other games who used to be on that list were the original 3 Mortal Kombats.
Add to that Dead Rising 2, Silent Hill: Homecoming and Commandos: Behind Enemy Lines.
Since nobody else brought it up, if you try fucking steam, you'll burn your wee wee.

As a result, I would suggest not doing so if you value your manhood.
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Psyringe: Did you perhaps buy different versions, through different means? Jamyskis, didn't you mention something about "non-FSK" versions in your OP?
I bought the PEGI disc version. I expect Simon bought the NA Steam key from Amazon.

I've got two other reports of censored versions - one with a version bought directly from Steam, one with a key supplied with a graphics card. The mention of "Sleeping Dogs Retail (EU)" has been replaced with "Sleeping Dogs (DE)" in all cases.

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hedwards: Since nobody else brought it up, if you try fucking steam, you'll burn your wee wee.
Why did that suddenly bring the name "Armin Meiwes" to memory?
Post edited November 12, 2012 by jamyskis
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jamyskis: I bought the PEGI disc version. I expect Simon bought the NA Steam key from Amazon.
Bingo.
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hedwards: Since nobody else brought it up, if you try fucking steam, you'll burn your wee wee.

As a result, I would suggest not doing so if you value your manhood.
I not fucking Steam. I'm making sweet love ;-).
Post edited November 12, 2012 by SimonG
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jamyskis: Add to that Dead Rising 2, Silent Hill: Homecoming and Commandos: Behind Enemy Lines.
Ah, didn't know about the first two. Commandos is banned because of the swastikas, though, as are the other Wolfensteins.
If this all stems from Germany's early 20th century history, which I usually see given as the excuse, how come games like Civilization are okay? Surely something in which you conquer landmasses is more poignant than something where you go insane in an American town and fight weird fleshbeasts.
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Ivory&Gold: Ah, didn't know about the first two. Commandos is banned because of the swastikas, though, as are the other Wolfensteins.
The odd thing is though that Commandos is far from being the only game with swastikas. The original versions of Call of Duty, Medal of Honor and Company of Heroes all had swastikas, and they were only blacklisted, not banned outright. And Wolfenstein 3D is no longer banned, just blacklisted, as the ban expired in 2004 and wasn't renewed.

These bans were wrong anyway. The law in question (Section 86 of the German Criminal Code) requires the symbols to be used in a manner glorifying that particular organisation, which W3D did not do. One thing Commandos and Wolfenstein 3D did not do was glorify Nazism.

Edit: Just thinking, shouldn't the ban on Commandos have expired under the statute of limitations now?
Post edited November 12, 2012 by jamyskis
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jamyskis: Edit: Just thinking, shouldn't the ban on Commandos have expired under the statute of limitations now?
According to http://www.bpjm.com/, it has.

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jamyskis: These bans were wrong anyway. The law in question (Section 86 of the German Criminal Code) requires the symbols to be used in a manner glorifying that particular organisation, which W3D did not do. One thing Commandos and Wolfenstein 3D did not do was glorify Nazism.
I gather that's because games aren't, implicitly or explicitly, regarded as art? According to § 86:

(3) Absatz 1 gilt nicht, wenn das Propagandamittel oder die Handlung der staatsbürgerlichen Aufklärung, der Abwehr verfassungswidriger Bestrebungen, der Kunst oder der Wissenschaft, der Forschung oder der Lehre, der Berichterstattung über Vorgänge des Zeitgeschehens oder der Geschichte oder ähnlichen Zwecken dient.

That's the clause that that allows the depiction of swastikas in all the visual arts.
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jamyskis: And passing on Steam makes PC gaming very difficult,
no.
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Export: If this all stems from Germany's early 20th century history, which I usually see given as the excuse, how come games like Civilization are okay? Surely something in which you conquer landmasses is more poignant than something where you go insane in an American town and fight weird fleshbeasts.
What exactly are you referring to? The "glorifying violence" aspect or the "Nazi symbolism" aspect?

With regard to "glorifying violence", it shouldn't be a surprise that the depiction of bloody and visceral combat causes more concern than moving abstract armies across an abstract map, and having one of them removed.

With regard to "Nazi symbolism" - while most people seem to think that this is some strange German idea of censorship, it was actually the allies (US, UK, France) who banned Nazi symbols in the defeated German provinces. Germans weren't asked, and subsequent German governments simply have never been in a position to lift that ban, even if they wanted to (which I doubt). The fun thing is that I see lots of Americans or Britains making fun of these strange German laws when in fact it was their governments who enacted them ...
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jamyskis: While I had been limiting my Steam use to major titles that I really wanted and required Steam, I am now done with these ***s for good. This is the final fucking insult.

Anyone who has the non-USK (PEGI) version of Sleeping Dogs in Germany will suddenly now discover that their version has been retroactively censored, so many of the finishers are no longer possible.

FUCK THEM. And passing on Steam makes PC gaming very difficult, I'm pretty much done with PC gaming now.


Edit: I'm calmed down now. While my frustration and resolve above are unchanged, I apologise for the rant, although I'll leave it here largely untouched for the sake of continuity. Mods: Feel free to change the title to "Fscking Steam!".
I understand your pain. I lived in Germany for some years as a gamer.
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Psyringe: With regard to "Nazi symbolism" - while most people seem to think that this is some strange German idea of censorship, it was actually the allies (US, UK, France) who banned Nazi symbols in the defeated German provinces.
Are you sure about that? I can't find any reference to that, and while it would obviously make sense that the Allies would want traces of Hitler's dictatorship and ideology removed, it doesn't make sense for them to force a law that would also cover its use in games and films and so on - and then for Germany to keep it for over 60 years. I just quickly googled it and it doesn't mention anyone outside of Germany forcing it, rather it says that the West German government understandably wanted to distance themselves from the previous government, to put it mildly.

German news sources even talk of German politicians wanting to make the swastika ban Europe-wide. In either case, it's a seriously stupid law. It actually increases the mystique and power of the swastika.
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Export: German news sources even talk of German politicians wanting to make the swastika ban Europe-wide. In either case, it's a seriously stupid law. It actually increases the mystique and power of the swastika.
Poland (and GOG) will resist at first, after which Germany will probably invade Poland for their disobedience. After some time, whole of Europe will be under the iron grip of anti-swastika movement. I think I've seen some movie about this.
Post edited November 12, 2012 by timppu
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Psyringe: With regard to "Nazi symbolism" - while most people seem to think that this is some strange German idea of censorship, it was actually the allies (US, UK, France) who banned Nazi symbols in the defeated German provinces.
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Export: Are you sure about that? I can't find any reference to that,
I actually spent quite a bit of time researching that matter (triggered by a discussion why Hitler doesn't appear in Civilization IV). I think I took my statement from above from official educational material issued by the German Parliament, which ought to be a pretty reliable source. I'm not saying it's indisputable (and arguably a scientific exploration of the origins of this law might be a better source, but if one exists, then it's collecting dust in some university's library, and is out of reach for me). In any case, I'd rate my source as more reliable than google searches. ;)

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Export: and while it would obviously make sense that the Allies would want traces of Hitler's dictatorship and ideology removed, it doesn't make sense for them to force a law that would also cover its use in games and films and so on - and then for Germany to keep it for over 60 years.
The allies weren't concerned with any exceptions for entertainment material, they simply banned the symbols period.

When the Federal Republic of Germany was formed, the German legislation had to decide how to deal with that. The current law at this time was that the symbols were banned. The German legislation _could_ have changed that, but can you imagine the international outrage that this would have caused? Nazi Germany, the scourge of the world for about a decade, responsible for countless abominable crimes, gets its independence granted back, and the first thing they do is allowing their people to display Swastikas and Hitler Portraits again?

And while the international community probably wouldn't care that much if the Germans lifted the ban now (or 20 years ago), it would now be the wrong signal internally. There are groups of neo-nazis in Germany who would immediately see and present this as a nation-wide approval of their politics.

Whether or not any German legislation ever _wanted_ to lift the ban is an interesting question, however, it's not all that relevant. Because after the law had been enacted, it had become impossible for Germany to lift the ban, for the reasons mentioned above.

If you're interested in the details, I can look whether I can find my notes from back then, but it's been a few years ... on the other hand, perhaps one of the legally trained German forum members can address this issue as well. ;)
Post edited November 12, 2012 by Psyringe
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jamyskis: The problem is that the government hasn't censored anything. Yes, they've put the uncensored version on the blacklist, but for the time being, this doesn't affect the legality of actually selling or buying it, only openly marketing it. And it certainly doesn't affect purchases already made in legal terms.

For clarification, the government may only influence the distribution of such games within the boundaries of Germany, not the ownership or import. (at least under this particular law)
And Valve don't want to worry about their store page possibly counting as marketing, or risk anything as far as incurring the wrath of your government. The source problem is still that your government thinks controlling your media is okay.