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JonhMan: Problem with electronic based resales is that it's relatively easy to make a copy of whatever you're selling, so instead of selling your sole copy you can keep the copy and sell the original.

In this case, wouldn't the crime be in the unauthorized copying? If you acquire something legally you should be allowed to sell it without a problem. The moment you copy the thing, that's your crime right there, not the selling of the original.
And that article gives two completely different points of view, Wishbone, without setting for either. I can believe P2P people spending more money on music than non P2P people, probably because the non P2Pers aren't that interested in music in the first place, but how much money would the P2P people be spending if P2P or music piracy didn't exist. It'd be like in the eighties, where the only way you could get your music was from the radio and from stores. I'm willing to bet not ALL P2Pers take the honorable route of legally buying what they've already downloaded and that's where the record labels and musicians lose their money.
Also it's interesting to see that people are buying specific songs. Buying a full CD to get only two or three songs you liked seemed like an inevitable rip off.
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El_Caz: And that article gives two completely different points of view, Wishbone, without setting for either.

Not really. It gives the clear-cut results of a case study, with a comment that the music industry doesn't believe the result, but has nothing to back it up.
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El_Caz: I can believe P2P people spending more money on music than non P2P people, probably because the non P2Pers aren't that interested in music in the first place, but how much money would the P2P people be spending if P2P or music piracy didn't exist.

That's easy: less than they do now. You see, what happens is that P2P works as free advertising for the music industry. Most people want to support the artists, they just don't want to pay for something they may not like. Of course, I'm not saying they buy everything they like, but because of the wide selection available on P2P, they get exposed to much more music than they would otherwise, and thence to more they want to buy.
As for the people who don't use P2P, well, the article sums that up nicely as well:
"Instead of selling a huge volume of full albums—the physical media model—the record labels are now selling a huge volume of individual, cherry-picked tracks. It's no secret that the old album format is in dire straits thanks to online music, which is a large part of why overall music revenue is going down."
And:
"BI's report corroborates data that the Canadian branch of the RIAA, the Canadian Record Industry Association, released in 2006. At that time, the organization acknowledged that P2P users do indeed buy more music than the industry wants to admit, and that P2P isn't the primary reason why other people aren't buying music."
But as usual, the media industry keeps crying "PIRACY!!!" rather than admitting that their sales methods simply haven't kept up with the times.
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Wishbone: That's easy: less than they do now. You see, what happens is that P2P works as free advertising for the music industry. Most people want to support the artists, they just don't want to pay for something they may not like. Of course, I'm not saying they buy everything they like, but because of the wide selection available on P2P, they get exposed to much more music than they would otherwise, and thence to more they want to buy.

I don't agree with the first part of that but do with the second. I've met lots of people who don't bother paying for something they already have for free, be it games or songs, and they couldn't care less about the singers or developers since in their eyes, those guys are already rich. Not everyone has the sort of high morals for using P2P acquired songs as demos only.
But yes, because they have a lot of variety to listen to, they get to like all sorts of songs, groups and singers that they probably wouldn't have access to otherwise (not everyone can get their songs on the radio) and of course there will always be a group of people that'll want to support these singers they've started to like, but I seriously doubt it'll be the majority. In that regard, I figure P2P actually helps the starting bands and singers trying to make a name for themselves without much support from the big record companies.
Sometimes I do wonder if Record labels are losing that much money really. When I see people ilegally selling movies or music on the street, the buyers aren't exactly people who would have bought the originals anyway. If they can't have it for extremely cheap (or free), they just won't buy it. So many teenagers have their ilegal collections on their computers quite simply because they can't afford it legally. Once they get old enough to have jobs, then they may get their mitts on original stuff they really love and paid for, but anything they're not willing to pay for (don't like it so much, just like a couple of songs or whatever) they'll get ilegally. In those cases it shouldn't really count as a loss for the record label since they weren't going to get that customer anyway. That's where I think whatever numbers they conjure up as losses are flawed. Not every downloaded song would have been a sale had the song not been available on the web.
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Wishbone: That's easy: less than they do now. You see, what happens is that P2P works as free advertising for the music industry. Most people want to support the artists, they just don't want to pay for something they may not like. Of course, I'm not saying they buy everything they like, but because of the wide selection available on P2P, they get exposed to much more music than they would otherwise, and thence to more they want to buy.
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El_Caz: I don't agree with the first part of that but do with the second. I've met lots of people who don't bother paying for something they already have for free, be it games or songs, and they couldn't care less about the singers or developers since in their eyes, those guys are already rich. Not everyone has the sort of high morals for using P2P acquired songs as demos only.

True. That picture I painted there was a bit too rosy for comfort. Naturally, lots of people just download stuff and never pay for any of it. But then, they probably wouldn't have payed for it anyway, so it doesn't really count as a loss to me.
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El_Caz: In that regard, I figure P2P actually helps the starting bands and singers trying to make a name for themselves without much support from the big record companies.

Indeed. While the digital distribution model means that people buy more single songs and less albums, it also means that they buy music from many more different artists than they did before. And P2P helps a lot there. People wouldn't necessarily buy a CD with a band they'd never heard of, but they'd download one for free, no problem. Then, once heard, they may buy it if they like it. Since people don't have unlimited money, this likely means less sales for big established artists, but more sales for new unestablished ones. And of course, there are always people who won't buy music no matter what.
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El_Caz: When I see people ilegally selling movies or music on the street, the buyers aren't exactly people who would have bought the originals anyway.

At this point, my gaze drifted to your name, and the country beneath it. Sometimes I forget that not the entire world works as Denmark does. The situation you're describing would be unthinkable here.
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El_Caz: That's where I think whatever numbers they conjure up as losses are flawed. Not every downloaded song would have been a sale had the song not been available on the web.

Exactly. Are songs pirated? Yes, of course. Does piracy equal lost sales? No, it doesn't. If a pirate wouldn't have bought it anyway, then nothing is lost, per se. If a pirate would have bought it, then he most likely will at a later date. And he'll most likely buy more than that too, because he's had access to a much wider selection.
Post edited July 13, 2009 by Wishbone
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Wishbone: At this point, my gaze drifted to your name, and the country beneath it. Sometimes I forget that not the entire world works as Denmark does. The situation you're describing would be unthinkable here.

Pretty sure it would. We're third world. Even if it's illegal and people DO get arrested for copying and selling the stuff you can see sellers getting on buses, announcing what movies they've got, people buying the stuff on the bus and the guy getting off without anyone lifting a finger. Not everyone can hook online for their pirated merchandise and for the average guy, selling pirated stuff is not much of a crime. People even see it as just some poor guy trying to make a living.
There are a lot of countries like mine around the world and many of their citizens will never bother to buy music or movies legally, specially since they can't afford them or are not willing to pay the price of a legal copy, but like you said, these examples shouldn't even be counted as lost sales. The only lost sale is that from a person who would have bought it at retail but doesn't because he got it for free online and to calculate, from a number of downloads, how many of those sales were lost is impossible.
Post edited July 13, 2009 by El_Caz
Good (temporary) news.
The UMP (Sarkozy's party) has the bad habit to discuss and vote laws during holidays periods or long weekends, so they can do what they want without many deputies, and so without many opposition. Wonderful example of democracy, isn't it?...
It was then decided to make a lecture of the HADOPI law this week (...) beginning today, and eventually go for a vote this month but, apparently, there were so few deputies (even UMP deputies) that it has been cancelled and reported to september.
So, the law is not dead, but I like to see it as a (small) punch in the face.
To be continued...