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General discussion (archive)Freeware or Abondonware Games on GOG(57 posts)(57 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted January 04, 2012
Article 15 of the Covenant recognises the right of everyone to participate in cultural life, enjoy the benefits of scientific progress, and to benefit from the protection of the moral and material rights to any scientific discovery or artistic work they have created. The latter clause is sometimes seen as requiring the protection of intellectual property, but the Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights interprets it as primarily protecting the moral rights of authors and "proclaim[ing] the intrinsically personal character of every creation of the human mind and the ensuing durable link between creators and their creations".[51] It thus requires parties to respect the right of authors to be recognised as the creator of a work. The material rights are interpreted as being part of the right to an adequate standard of living, and "need not extend over the entire lifespan of an author."[52]

Parties must also work to promote the conservation, development and diffusion of science and culture, "respect the freedom indispensable for scientific research and creative activity",[53] and encourage international contacts and cooperation in these fields.
Hehe.

You talk about access to cultural life, but you say nothing about protecting the rightholders, no matter if they use their rights or not. And this is also a basic human right.
Post edited January 04, 2012 by keeveek
Posted January 04, 2012
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Cleidophoros: What exactly makes you think you are entitled to it? That you must obtain it whatever the authors' thinking about it?
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SLP2000: Because I think that people are entitled to use cultural goods. It's a human right (Second generation), written in International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (as "participation in cultural life" )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Covenant_on_Economic,_Social_and_Cultural_Rights
Your treaty;
The right to science and culture is an economic, social, and cultural human right claimed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and related documents which says that everyone has a right to participate in culture, to benefit from scientific progress, and to have a stake in their own contributions to science and culture. It is expressed in Article 27 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
“

(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.

(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.
”


Similar language appears in Article 15 of the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, a treaty that many nations have signed:
“

The States Parties to the present Covenant recognize the right of everyone:

(a) To take part in cultural life;

(b) To enjoy the benefits of scientific progress and its applications;

(c) To benefit from the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_science_and_culture

You think you are entitled to my work(without any reason other than I am entitled to it!) but I am not entitled to protect my own work?
Post edited January 04, 2012 by Cleidophoros
Posted January 04, 2012
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Cleidophoros: snip
You asked me "What exactly makes you think you are entitled to it? That you must obtain it whatever the authors' thinking about it?"

And I said that I have right to freely participate in cultural life. That's the thing that makes me think I'm entitled to watch the cartoon. I think that people have right to use cultural goods that were released to the public, just because they were released. Not for free, but if they pay, they should have such right.



I didn't said that creators have no rights to protect their work, because they have.

I said that in my opinion, it should be changed - and authors should be protected only if they provide their work for sale.
Post edited January 04, 2012 by SLP2000
Posted January 04, 2012
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Paingiver: If GOG include all of the good free games in its library wouldn't be nice? For example
Warcraft 1 and 2, Duke Nukem 1 and 2, TES: Arena and Daggerfall?
I'm pretty sure WC1 and 2 aren't freeware, nor have they ever been...
Posted January 04, 2012
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keeveek: You talk about access to cultural life, but you say nothing about protecting the rightholders, no matter if they use their rights or not. And this is also a basic human right.
I answered the question why I feel I'm entitled to be able to buy my cartoon.

And you guys seem to say that I said " I'm entitled to be able to buy my cartoon, and they are not entitled to forbid me so", while all this discussion is about that they are entitled, but in my opinion - they should be not.
Post edited January 04, 2012 by SLP2000
Posted January 04, 2012
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Cleidophoros: snip
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SLP2000: You asked me "What exactly makes you think you are entitled to it? That you must obtain it whatever the authors' thinking about it?"

And I said that I have right to freely participate in cultural life. That's the thing that makes me think I'm entitled to watch the cartoon. I think that people have right to use cultural goods that were released to the public, just because they were released. Not for free, but if they pay, they should have such right.



I didn't said that creators have no rights to protect their work, because they have.

I said that in my opinion, it should be changed - and authors should be protected only if they provide their work for sale.
If I publish a book must I translate it to 300 languages and ship it to every bookstore in every country? Because if my fellow citizens are entitled to the book so are all other people on earth.
You can participate in any culture life you want, if you can find the book for sale. if you can score a ticket to that awesome play. What happens when the play is canceled, do you demand it is put back on because you are entitled to it?

I chose to write the book. And now I am choosing to pull it back. You are not entitled to anything. You are of course entitled to buy my book, no one can stop you from picking up that copy from the bookstore. But if you think I must provide my book for everyone and the future generations, you are seriously mistaken.
Posted January 04, 2012
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Cleidophoros: So we will enforce the laws on a case by case basis? If the author is an arsehole, he is not entitled to any rights. But if he is a nice guy who will release his work after a certain period of time we will protect his work.
Don't be ridiculous, i was merely alluding to the fact that you obviously know jack shit of the subject at hand when you say things like "Society is not entitled to anything". If society is not entitled to anything why should it grant you protection ? WHy should it care if your IP is raped up the wahzoo or flat out plagiarized ? Why should society care one way or the other unless it had a significant stake in it ? Why should it bother with a couple of set of laws specifically engineered to protect your work and with giving you the legal means to enforce that protection ? Yeah.

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Cleidophoros: yes they granted me protection and I released my work through channels I see fit, on a price I see fit. What if society decides my work is not worth 20 bucks but only 5? Will I be forced to release at that price?
What if society decides a paperback is not enough and I should release a hardcover too? or an e-book? or maybe I must turn it into a movie too because society wants it. What if society demands to see me at some book signing event, I must fly all over the world to meet the demand.
I'm not saying you're forced to go on selling it under unfavourable conditions for you, and obviously whether or not you decide to write anything else is entirely up to you (seriously, these were suppposed to be valid arguments ?), what i'm saying is that autorship doesn't grant you the rigth to summarily decide to erase a body of work from existance, and that it shouldn't grant you the right to actively pursue that objective by granting you such extended protection timeframes or allowing you to use legal means to see that content taken down be it for such frivolous reasons as "I was young, i made money form it, now i'm embarassed it and i want it gone" or any other set of "Mine, Mine, All Mine!" reasons.

Frankly, the kind of arguments you are bringing to the table are revealing of how just much you are out of your depth, so keeping this up it's all shades of futile.

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Cleidophoros: What you are missing is as long as there is certain interest in a work it will be released.
Really ? Someone should tell gog about that one in regards to the System Shock games for instance.

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Cleidophoros: Society can expand on my work when I feel like it if I decide to release it as public domain. Or after 75 years of my death.
Oh ? And how will that happen 75 years from your death? Because if you had your way by that time there would be nothing left of your work to expand on. How many games from the past 30 years would be gone, literally or at least completely removed from public's perception aside from a few nerds scattered throughout, if they hadn't been kept around, made available by others other than their creators or rights holders ?

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Cleidophoros: I don't care about making my book a classic and I have no problems with it vanishing from the face of the earth. It's me in the first place who doesn't want to release it anymore for whatever reason.
Luckily society does care and be it trough proper channels or not in the corrent frame chances are your work will be preserved nevertheless, so my unborn grand son will probably be able to laugh his ass off with your silly 17 poems be it by buying them legit or interfacing with the neural subnets to download them directly to the hard drive implanted on his ass. Good for him too. Well, i'm not so sure about the HD implanted on his ass part but in regars to not being deprived from your poems, definitely good for him

Like i said, no much point in keeping this up.
Post edited January 04, 2012 by Namur
Posted January 04, 2012
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Cleidophoros: If I publish a book must I translate it to 300 languages and ship it to every bookstore in every country? Because if my fellow citizens are entitled to the book so are all other people on earth.
Nope, it should be available for order in the Internet and no reason to translate it, that's the consumer problem.

You can participate in any culture life you want, if you can find the book for sale. if you can score a ticket to that awesome play. What happens when the play is canceled, do you demand it is put back on because you are entitled to it?
There's a difference between a play (show) and a book - first is not recorded on the media, secon is "recorded" on the paper.

I chose to write the book. And now I am choosing to pull it back. You are not entitled to anything. You are of course entitled to buy my book, no one can stop you from picking up that copy from the bookstore. But if you think I must provide my book for everyone and the future generations, you are seriously mistaken.
I'm not mistaken. It's just a matter of time when it will be free to download for everyone. At this moment in Poland it's 70 years after your death, and I'm just saying that it should be less.




And one more thing - you guys sounds like the companies arguing in favour of DRM. "We should be able whatever we want", "we'd like to control what's going on with our game".

It's more complicated than that, and it's not that the author has all rights, and society none.
Post edited January 04, 2012 by SLP2000
Posted January 04, 2012
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Cleidophoros: So we will enforce the laws on a case by case basis? If the author is an arsehole, he is not entitled to any rights. But if he is a nice guy who will release his work after a certain period of time we will protect his work.
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Namur: Don't be ridiculous, i was merely alluding to the fact that you obviously know jack shit of the subject at hand when you say things like "Society is not entitled to anything". If society is not entitled to anything why should it grant you protection ? WHy should it care if your IP is raped up the wahzoo or flat out plagiarized ? Why should society care one way or the other unless it had a significant stake in it ? Why should it bother with a couple of set of laws specifically engineered to protect your work and with giving you the legal means to enforce that protection ? Yeah.
Society is entitled to what I give them as an author. I am not pulling all copies back, they are still there; go to a library and read it if you must.
And yes society has given me laws and means to protect my work and I am using them, I don't see what the problem is. They give me rights so they can enjoy my work.

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Cleidophoros: yes they granted me protection and I released my work through channels I see fit, on a price I see fit. What if society decides my work is not worth 20 bucks but only 5? Will I be forced to release at that price?
What if society decides a paperback is not enough and I should release a hardcover too? or an e-book? or maybe I must turn it into a movie too because society wants it. What if society demands to see me at some book signing event, I must fly all over the world to meet the demand.
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Namur: I'm not saying you're forced to go on selling it under unfavourable conditions for you, and obviously whether or not you decide to write anything else is entirely up to you (seriously, these were suppposed to be valid arguments ?), what i'm saying is that autorship doesn't grant you the rigth to summarily decide to erase a body of work from existance, and that it shouldn't grant you the right to actively pursue that objective by granting you such extended protection timeframes or allowing you to use legal means to see that content taken down be it for such frivolous reasons as "I was young, i made money form it, now i'm embarassed it and i want it gone" or any other set of "Mine, Mine, All Mine!" reasons.

Frankly, the kind of arguments you are bringing to the table are revealing of how just much you are out of your depth, so keeping this up it's all shades of futile.
I chose to write it and now I am choosing to not provide it any more.
Once again I am not erasing it from the face of the earth, they are still there; I am merely choosing not to provide any additional copies.
You cannot use my work where I don't want it to be. You might say it's mine mine mine attitude, I see it as my basic right as an author.

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Cleidophoros: What you are missing is as long as there is certain interest in a work it will be released.
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Namur: Really ? Someone should tell gog about that one in regards to the System Shock games for instance.
GOG doesn't have any rights to release System Shock, it's someone else's IP. there is someone somewhere right now who doesn't want to release SC. I am sure he would flip over all the monies to be made but it seems he just doesn't care.

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Cleidophoros: Society can expand on my work when I feel like it if I decide to release it as public domain. Or after 75 years of my death.
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Namur: Oh ? And how will that happen 75 years from now ? Because if you had your way by that time there would be nothing left of your work to expand on. How many games from the past 30 years would be gone, literally or at least completely removed from public's perception aside from a few nerds scattered throughout, if they hadn't been kept around, made available by others other than their creators or rights holders ?
I don't give a fuck what happens in 75 years. But I am sure being able to play System Shock won't save humanity from any kind of catastrophe.

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Cleidophoros: I don't care about making my book a classic and I have no problems with it vanishing from the face of the earth. It's me in the first place who doesn't want to release it anymore for whatever reason.
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Namur: Luckily society does care and be it trough proper channels or not in the corrent frame chances are your work will be preserved nevertheless, so my unborn grand son will probably be able to laugh his ass off with your silly 17 poems be it by buying them legit or interfacing with the neural subnets to download them directly to the hard drive implanted on his ass. Good for him too. Well, i'm not so sure about the HD implanted on his ass part but in regars to not being deprived from your poems, definitely good for him

Like i said, no much point in keeping this up.
I don't care what society does. If my work is destined to be a classic it will be even if I try to hide it. That's what libraries and museums are for, to preserve our past. I have no obligation to provide you with my work.

Yes no point since you are turning this personal.
G'day.
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Cleidophoros: If I publish a book must I translate it to 300 languages and ship it to every bookstore in every country? Because if my fellow citizens are entitled to the book so are all other people on earth.
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SLP2000: Nope, it should be available for order in the Internet and no reason to translate it, that's the consumer problem.
Yes, that's the consumer problem. Too bad you were born few years late or you would enjoy my book. Too bad you were born in some god forsaken country otherwise you could enjoy my work. I have no onligations to provide you with a copy; go to a library if you want to read my book.


You can participate in any culture life you want, if you can find the book for sale. if you can score a ticket to that awesome play. What happens when the play is canceled, do you demand it is put back on because you are entitled to it?
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SLP2000: There's a difference between a play (show) and a book - first is not recorded on the media, secon is "recorded" on the paper.
So? where do you draw the line? books, movies, paintings, pottery, games, statues?


I chose to write the book. And now I am choosing to pull it back. You are not entitled to anything. You are of course entitled to buy my book, no one can stop you from picking up that copy from the bookstore. But if you think I must provide my book for everyone and the future generations, you are seriously mistaken.
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SLP2000: I'm not mistaken. It's just a matter of time when it will be free to download for everyone. At this moment in Poland it's 70 years after your death, and I'm just saying that it should be less.
And I have been tellin you that you can do whatever you want when the copyright expires.
You are not only saying the period should be less, you are also saying that the author should provide everyone a copy if he is not selling it.


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SLP2000: And one more thing - you guys sounds like the companies arguing in favour of DRM. "We should be able whatever we want", "we'd like to control what's going on with our game".

It's more complicated than that, and it's not that the author has all rights, and society none.
Nothing to do with drm. drm regulates your access to the product you already have. We are talking about different things here
Post edited January 04, 2012 by Cleidophoros
Posted January 04, 2012
If the game is a classic, it belongs here. Freeware or not.
Posted January 04, 2012
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Cleidophoros: Nothing to do with drm. drm regulates your access to the product you already have. We are talking about different things here
You say that society is not entitled. I'll just say that we'll see what you will say about it, when (and if) society will decide it is entitled.

Second thing - drm has to do a lot, becasue we are talking about the law that regulated society access to a released work.

I'm not saying that author should provide everyone copy, if he's not selling it - I just say that it shouldn't be illegal to download a copy when it's no longer in sale, and author doesn't care about it.


To simplify - I think that abandonware should be legal. There's a problem how to do it, and I think that what I said is a good solution.

---

It could be also worked out this way - work is protected for 15/20 years, and after that - only when it's still sold or when the author restrict that in the office - for another 15/20 years period.

In this case, those who sell their work are protected, those who don't want their work being available are protected, and those who don't care, don't restrict their work, so ppl are not breaking law when downloading their works.

Something similar is working in the patent law. (I mean restricting for another period of time).
Post edited January 04, 2012 by SLP2000
Posted January 04, 2012
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Cleidophoros: Society is entitled to what I give them as an author. I am not pulling all copies back, they are still there; go to a library and read it if you must.
And yes society has given me laws and means to protect my work and I am using them, I don't see what the problem is. They give me rights so they can enjoy my work.
No, it gave you rights so that your work could some day be tossed into the common poool of works, which it won't happen if your work, for all practical purposes, through inaction and/or active lobbying, vanishes before the toss, which means society is being bamboolezed on the deal it made with you.

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Cleidophoros: GOG doesn't have any rights to release System Shock, it's someone else's IP. there is someone somewhere right now who doesn't want to release SC. I am sure he would flip over all the monies to be made but it seems he just doesn't care.
"What you are missing is as long as there is certain interest in a work it will be released."

Is there interest ? Maker, yes. Was it released it yet ? Nope.

Oh, what kept that interest alive and kicking for the general public assuring that should it be released once again it will have an eager market waiting with CC im hand ? The gray channels.

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Cleidophoros: But I am sure being able to play System Shock won't save humanity from any kind of catastrophe.
But making sure some poor author somewhere doesn't get embarassed by his foolishly released youth poems will? Yeah, always a great argument this one.

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Cleidophoros: I have no obligation to provide you with my work.
Agreed, just like you should have no rights to actively bar me from it once you've expressed the intent of no longer providing it.

Anyway, have a good one.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)Freeware or Abondonware Games on GOG(57 posts)(57 posts)
(57 posts)