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SLP2000: But, there should be law that obligates the copyright holder to provide book/movie/game/song for sale to everyone after 15/20 years from the release date. If the copyright holder fails to do that, everyone should be able to legally download it from the Net ot make a copy.
Why? I made it and I don't want you to have it. What makes you think you are entitled to have my work? and for free?
Post edited January 04, 2012 by Cleidophoros
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SLP2000: I'd say that it's most important for a cultural inheritance that in next decade there should be introduced the obligation for the copyright holders to provide their goods for sale, and in case of failure to do so, everyone is entitled to download a copy from the net. So there should be no problem for anyone to get old books/music/games/movies.
I tried to reply to this once already, but GOG logged me out as I posted it and the message didn't appear, so if there are suddenly 2 similar replies by me, it's that silliness. Anyway:
What if I wrote a book for my friend, and only for him, intending it as a super personal gift, so it'd be something unique that no one else has, and then someone hacked my computer or got access to the book in some other way, he'd be entitled to share it all over the internet because I refused to sell it?
...or to make it more obviously "goods", a short story that I sell to people attending an event of some sort and don't want other people to have access to it. Because it was an "available here only, at this time" product, it's free for everyone who didn't attend. Then next year I decide that I might want to sell it again, but it's already been free against my will for a year. Oh my..
...and a game I make for Steam, but Steam's down for maintenance. It's not available for sale now! Get on it uploaders, it's freeeee
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keeveek: Nope. You can abandon only movable objects, not rights.
Nope, you can also abandon real estate, which is not movable object (zasiedzenie nieruchomości).

Plus, you forgot that you abandon movable objects and thus you abandon your rights to that object (prawo własności), so technically, it's the same. The only difference is that with IP rights it's not visible that you abandoned those rights, while when you abandon movable objects (or real estates) it's visible to everyone.

Presumption that somebody has abandoned his IP , because he's not selling it anymore is unacceptable.
It's acceptable by society (hence abandonwarez sites which got almost no negative opinions, contrary to warez sites).

And it's easy to do. The law should specify that the period of 70 (or 75 in Germany) years in which IP is protected applies only to the IP which is available for a consumer to buy. If IP holder fails to provide his good, consumer is entitled to download or make a copy of that good.

Can I distribute your old emails from your email box , because you don't use it anymore?
No, but because of privacy of my emails, and because they were not released to a publicity. I'm only speaking of goods (music/books/movies/games) which were released, but they are not avaiable to buy anymore. If something wasn't released at all, noone has rights to make a copy/download.

And your emails. And your poem written to that hot chick from senior class.
As I said, my emails are protected by my right to privacy, and my poem wasn't released, so it cannot be copied.
I wrote my thesis about copyright law, and I'm talking about different part of copyright law than you, and you don't see it.
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Cleidophoros: Why? I made it and I don't want you to have it. What makes you think you are entitled to have my work? and for free?
+1 to that.
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SLP2000: snip
You are confusing zasiedzenie with porzucenie rzeczy.

Second: if you "abandon" your IP, you abandon not only the right to sell that title, but also to it's name, brand and content. Which is again - unacceptable.

If Nike is not selling some type of shoes anymore, does it give me right to copy it and sell it under nike's name? No.

Your point of view on IP is shallow and it creates dozens of problems from legal point of view.

The owner/author should be the only person to decide what do to with his work, to prevent from distribution, to stop distribution, etc. Just like you've decided to make your emails private.
Post edited January 04, 2012 by keeveek
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Cleidophoros: Why? I made it and I don't want you to have it. What makes you think you are entitled to have my work? and for free?
First of all, it's a situation when you made it, and you released it some time ago, but now you are not interested in providing for a sale.

If you know how the copyright law works, you sure know that law protects an author only for some time. At the beginning, copyright law protected only for 15-20 years, now it's 75-100 hundred years.

It's because copyright law base on the fact, that every author use the ideas that someone else used before. So there's no "forever protected", it's just the question how long. After that time, everyone is free to use it, no matter what copyright holder said (says).

I think that todays law let to the problem that some IPs are dead (noone is interested in providing a copy for the masses) and it's impossible to get a copy.

I think that it's more important to give the possibility to use that IP to the masses than to protect someone who is not interested in providing his work for sale.

And if someone does privide, then it's still protected (as long as IP holder provides his work).

And if someone does privide, then it's still protected (as long as IP holder provides his work).
So I have to sell my items as long as I live (and further), even if it's not affordable (nobody buys it), because if I stop, I will loose all my rights to that work.

Great idea!
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Adzeth: What if I wrote a book for my friend, and only for him, intending it as a super personal gift, so it'd be something unique that no one else has, and then someone hacked my computer or got access to the book in some other way, he'd be entitled to share it all over the internet because I refused to sell it?
Nope, because that book was not released to the public.

...or to make it more obviously "goods", a short story that I sell to people attending an event of some sort and don't want other people to have access to it. Because it was an "available here only, at this time" product, it's free for everyone who didn't attend. Then next year I decide that I might want to sell it again, but it's already been free against my will for a year. Oh my..
As I said, in this case you'd be protected for 15/20 years, and after that time I see no reason to protect it. I think it's more important to let masses to be able to read that short story, than to protect your right.

...and a game I make for Steam, but Steam's down for maintenance. It's not available for sale now! Get on it uploaders, it's freeeee
Of course it would only be possible if your game would be not available to buy for a certain period of time (i.e. one year).
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keeveek: You are confusing zasiedzenie with porzucenie rzeczy.
Nope, I'm just seeing that the "porzucenie" is the first condition of "zasiedzenie".

If someone use his real estate, it cannot be "zasiedzone". And if he "porzuci", then someone else may start to use it, and after some time (20 or 30 years) he'll "zasiedzi" real estate. I'm simplyfying, but that's not the place or time to go into details.

Second: if you "abandon" your IP, you abandon not only the right to sell that title, but also to it's name, brand and content. Which is again - unacceptable.
Nope, if such law concerns only "autorskie prawa majątkowe"

The owner/author should be the only person to decide what do to with his work, to prevent from distribution, to stop distribution, etc. Just like you've decided to make your emails private.
But it's not the truth even with today's law. There are many situations where one can use your work without your permission.
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keeveek: So I have to sell my items as long as I live (and further), even if it's not affordable (nobody buys it), because if I stop, I will loose all my rights to that work.

Great idea!
Yeah, basically, that's it.

But you're judging my idea without a note that we could for example use "organizacje zbiorowego zarządzania". The law could obligate them to provide such tools for the IP holders, so they could sell their goos at no costs (ie. book on the website, etc).

Basically, my idea says that IPs are protected if IP holder is interested in it. If not, there's no sense in protecting IP for 70 years.
Post edited January 04, 2012 by SLP2000
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Cleidophoros: Why? I made it and I don't want you to have it. What makes you think you are entitled to have my work? and for free?
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SLP2000: First of all, it's a situation when you made it, and you released it some time ago, but now you are not interested in providing for a sale.
yes I don't want to sell it anymore. many reasons, it's not profitable. or I just don't want you to have it, simple as that. or maybe I just hate my book after 15 years and I don't even want to see it let alone sharing it with people.

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SLP2000: If you know how the copyright law works, you sure know that law protects an author only for some time. At the beginning, copyright law protected only for 15-20 years, now it's 75-100 hundred years. It's because copyright law base on the fact, that every author use the ideas that someone else used before. So there's no "forever protected", it's just the question how long. After that time, everyone is free to use it, no matter what copyright holder said (says).
Yes I know. You can have it 75 years after my death, not before.

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SLP2000: I think that todays law let to the problem that some IPs are dead (noone is interested in providing a copy for the masses) and it's impossible to get a copy.

I think that it's more important to give the possibility to use that IP to the masses than to protect someone who is not interested in providing his work for sale.

And if someone does privide, then it's still protected (as long as IP holder provides his work).
There might be cases where the copyright holder is willing to provide a copy but unable to due to financial reasons. But then again they can just relinquish their copyrights and release the work as public domain.
If they are not releasing the work as public domain then;
1. They just don't want you to have it. Not a difficult concept.
2. There are at least 2 parties involved in the copyright and 1 of them is not willing to provide it for free or as a product; for whatever reasons they have. It's their work, they can do whatever they want with it.

Forcing people to release their work is not fair.
"Listen to me author; You either publish your 20 year old book(losing money in the process because there will almost always be very little interest) or I am just gonna let everyone get a copy (you get no money this time but you forfeit your rights to your own work). "
Since when is Duke Nukem 1 and 2 freeware? The 3DRealms store still sells both for $5.99 each.

http://www.buy3drealms.com/
I'd rather they didn't personally. There are plenty of places on the internet to get Freeware games so it's not like you're missing out. Not to mention, GOG is still small with only so many staff. Their time would be better spent acquiring and making available commercial games, especially since the catalogue is still rather small.
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Cleidophoros: snip
I have my opinion, you've got yours. I said everything in this thread I wanted to, if you disagree, then it's your right.

I see no reason to protect previously released work just because author doesn't want to sell it anymore. You can disagree, but that's my opinion.

In case of being unable because of financial reasons, I guess that in the era of the Internet, this is not really a problem. We could even have some EU website which provides necessary tools.
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SLP2000: I see no reason to protect previously released work just because author doesn't want to sell it anymore. You can disagree, but that's my opinion.
I see a few reasons. and that's my opinion along with law makers and authors.
I might be considering my first book as delusions of a young and twisted mind and I just want to hide them from people, you have no right to force me to release it. Basic human rights.

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SLP2000: In case of being unable because of financial reasons, I guess that in the era of the Internet, this is not really a problem. We could even have some EU website which provides necessary tools.
Internet is not the solution. You will never get the same excitement out of a .pdf for a book. And how about paintings, pictures? You will never be able to recreate them faithfully; there is more than colour to those.

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SLP2000: I have my opinion, you've got yours. I said everything in this thread I wanted to, if you disagree, then it's your right.
İdea behind interwebz forums is to talk. And disagree. And then talk some more. But by all means, goodbye.
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Cleidophoros: yes I don't want to sell it anymore. many reasons, it's not profitable. or I just don't want you to have it, simple as that. or maybe I just hate my book after 15 years and I don't even want to see it let alone sharing it with people.
So why should society go on granting you a grace period so that you can capitalize on it when you come up with a new body of work ? If that's your take on it maybe society should revise its own stance on the matter ? If that's what you want maybe society should answer "fuck you then, let's see how you fare on your own without the protection from IP, Plagiarism, etc, laws", don't you think ?

Frankly this line of thought disgusts me when i think that some of mankind's most treasured bodies of work are classics from eons ago, the implications that there are people walking this world who probably love those classics as much as i do and still would be up for a culling in regards to the potencial classics from now available in 300 or 400 years with a "I made it and i don't want you to have it" 'tude scares the hell out me. Luckily most content creators, and even 'evil' corps, are alot more reasonable.
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Cleidophoros: yes I don't want to sell it anymore. many reasons, it's not profitable. or I just don't want you to have it, simple as that. or maybe I just hate my book after 15 years and I don't even want to see it let alone sharing it with people.
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Namur: So why should society go on granting you a grace period so that you can capitalize on it when you come up with a new body of work ? If that's your take on it maybe society should revise its own stance on the matter ? If that's what you want maybe society should answer "fuck you then, let's see how you fare on your own without the protection from IP, Plagiarism, etc, laws", don't you think ?
Society is not entitled to anything. I write my book, I publish my book. If and when I want to.
Society is free to to tell me to fuck off and not buy my new work if they don't like my attitude.
How in hell are you gonna justify forcing me to release something I don't want to? What's next? "you are a useless sleazeball so you go write a book!" "you are a useless sleazeball so you go and work in that shop for a month!"

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Namur: Frankly this line of thought disgusts me when i think that some of mankind's most treasured bodies of work are classics from eons ago, the implications that there are people walking this world who probably love those classics as much as i do and still would be up for a culling in regards to the potencial classics from now available in 300 or 400 years with a "I made it and i don't want you to have it" 'tude scares the hell out me. Luckily most content creators, and even 'evil' corps, are alot more reasonable.
What is disgusting here exactly? Did sheakspeare release his work for the masses to bash them in his glorious light of enlighttenment? or was he trying to make money? Did he have some copyright law to protect him? How in hell do you know he would want every other person and their dog to have a copy of his book in their library? You are assuming stuff.
Did you write any poems when you were younger assuming you are not anymore? Do you want to release them for all the interwebz to see? No? What if you did a mistake of publishing them at 17? Would you like to be forced to release them again? and for free? so much embaresment and no compensation.

Classics and their ages and no more classics getting released is another matter. We have written and published billions and billions of books, don't you think we are running out of ideas by now? Or are classics just a matter of time? Then we will have to talk 300 years from today.
I can only talk about my own field of work; archaeology. I am looking at the great archaeologists starting with 19th century. they didn't do anything special by today's standarts; they just did it first, there was no one else to do that shit. Most didn't even have science in their mind, they just stole shit from underdeveloped countries. The great masterminds were no greater than me; I am just running out of sites to work on and whatever I think of publishing has already been published to death.
Post edited January 04, 2012 by Cleidophoros