Decreasing the taxes could help. People have more money = people spend more money = more taxes income.

I still don't get why politicians in my country make big eyes and are shocked when taxes income gets smaller everytime they raise the taxes...

I thought about starting some business again, but when I remember how much I needed to pay for social security, income taxes, VAT etc etc. I don't even want to... Taxes kill all the profits to the point when not a single business is profitable in first 2 years. If you can't survive through them, you will only loose money on starting that business, no matter how good it would be.

For example, if you want to pay 2 000 PLN to your employee here, you need to spend at least 3 200 PLN (that's the total cost of hiring that person for 2 000 PLN). You could easily hire another person for 1 200 PLN but you can't - that money is already gone.

What I've seen from many forums, is that people who don't travel much or have spent their life in a wealthy country (or a mixture of wealthy western countries) or don't give a shit to learn about other cultures and people, are far more prone to axioms such as "you're lazy, that's why you don't work" than people who travel a lot and like expanding themselves.

Because in the end when you're unemployed (because unemployment is at 15-20%), you really can't do a whole lot of things. Can you go kill someone to take their job? Can you start your own job - without money or savings or a healthy financial environment? Can you topple the government? What can you do? Leave the country? The only thing you can do, is just hope that the people who will rule the country after the election, will manage to better thing a bit, a tiny bit, for you to live with some pride.

It really is hard for some person from a wealthy country to understand the difficulties some people from another country face, when he has a well paying job and was born, grew up and still lives his life safely. This unemployment is not a matter of laziness, as a person from such a country might think - it's a matter of poverty, because no one really hires, as companies, stores, outlets, you name it, simply shrink their expenses and lay off even more people, hoping to avoid the inevitable. Because no one can live with 495 euros per month (when a couple of years ago he earned 900), working 15 hours per day, 6 days a week, and having to pay bills that are constantly rising 5% with every passing month and taxes that have risen 300% during the past two years.

I wholeheartly agree with you and that is not related to poor countries, but also (maybe even more) to the working poor in rich countries.

But, to be honest, after I read the work benefits of greek state employees before the austerity measires... I mean, really? Some countries have used the Euro as their free piggy bank and lived a lifestyle that their GOP simply couldn't afford.

I'm certainly no fan of austerity measures, and we had some pretty bad ones ten years ago, but it is telling that countries with sensible spending are now doing better than countries that just didn't bother. Neither a person nor a country can live for a prolonged period a higher lifestyle than they can afford.

. Yes. Well, at least if you lived thousand years ago :P

Without huge taxation like it is now in most countries, you could started a company without any money. Just your own skills in anything.

Now it is near to impossible to start a company without decent savings.

I think about this every time when somebody on GOG.com states "you should buy this game for full price! 9.99 is pocket money!" It shows how short-sighted they are.

This sure has shaken up the IMF. They fear the clear message of voters across the world. Now they begin talking of investing in growth. Of finding a middle ground between austerity and growth. Our protests matter. They are on the run. But we are far from done. For we now just begin the stage where the fox tries to talk the hound off the hunt. In their fright, they offer hollow concession. If we keep the pressure up, the fox will be ours! Our people will be free from its predatory practice. But if you allow the sly fox to put you off purpose, the fox will escape to continue feeding off our people. End him! Once and for all!! End their predatory practice so that we may ALL move forward in mutual prosperity.

You probably read a slightly... inflated version of what actually went on (I've found out that when it's about speaking against countries, all national news agencies always do their best), judging by what Wishbone had mentioned a few months earlier.

However I won't deny, that many of the things you read, were true (if not a bit inflated). Here's the truth/issue from my perspective, a devoted enemy of public servants, who has no real reason to lie to you:

It is true that since the 1980's, the most profitable mainstream job in Greece was a state employee. It mainly started because of the permanency - people from the 50's and early 60's had grew up in their villages and under very hard conditions (the civil war was still going strong in people's minds and the country was in turmoil with governments constantly coming and going, the military dictatorship in 1966 was the last nail in the coffin) and suddenly found permanent, adequately paying jobs in offices and all kinds of organizations. It wasn't really hard for the post-junta governments (the few families that have plagued Greek politics since 1974 at least) to pick up the (job) hunger of the Greek populace and use it to be elected - people suddenly wouldn't care to lick a politician's ass if they could find a steady, well-paying job. In the mid-80's the socialist party started borrowing money as soon as they won the elections, and funded their way in people's minds as a great, people-loving government.

In a sense, the Greek people never really managed to mature politically - and it's a pretty long and lengthy process. It's like taking a child deprived of candy from a poor environment and putting it in a rich house - in a few years, it will be asking for the most expensive candy in the world, and will consider the posession and enjoyment of this candy, his right.

This situation continued during the 90's. I remember that back in 2005 when I was finishing school, a lot of my co-pupils were dreaming of becoming public servants. The permanency was their main point ("I won't have to study something crappy and search for a job, I'll be instantly employed by the state"), the salary was also quite good (1100 or 1200 euros for starters, and it kept rising with promotions and years in service, to amounts such as 2500 or 3000 euros), and there was also something else: In the 90's the concept of the "public servant" had degenerated in people's minds to the person that works from 8:00 to 14:00 every day, does not work at all and get away with it, and earns an insane amount of money doing nothing - or at least working under very relaxed conditions. It was pretty much the ideal job. Allow me to say however, that I've been living in Scotland since September and it's not really that much different to what a public servant or an academic (also considered a public servant in Greece, as Universities are state-funded) does here as well - which is weird, and goes to show how national news agencies do their best when talking about other countries.

Back to Greece now: The culmination of these reforms in the 80's was the appearance of a state corruption, unlike any other I've ever met or read about - politics is a shady business, but in Greece, it became even shadier. Companies from many European countries (Siemens for example) payed vast amounts to intermediate Greek state officials and presidents of state organizations, and all kinds of other middlemen to take up certain state constructions and projects that would give them even higher benefits. Countries (like yours for example) signed weapon agreements with the Greek governments (ending up in a weird arms race between Greece and Turkey, as if the third WW would start in the Aegean) and Greece ended up paying huge amounts of state money (tax money in effect) in arms (and even faulted ones, like the so-called "dipping submarines" we bought from Germany) in exchange for various political and economical aiding (more loans).

It's also important to remember that civil servants were only a fraction of the population. Obviously. The majority still worked and bled for insane amounts of time (I heard about the 1 hour "lunch break" as a custom here in the UK, in Greece people in the public sector ate while they worked :-/), and for pretty normal amounts of money - even back in 2004, before the mess started appearing, the average daily salary was about 45 euros (x 25 = 1125 euros per month). It's just that, back then prices were quite cheap, and everyone could work and live. It wasn't weird for a freelancer at a mature age, to even have enough money after 20 years of work, to build their own house and get away from rent.

Good examples of this majority are my parents: My father was a freelance tilelayer, worked since he was 12 years old and finally made it to his retirement last August at the age of 60, to earn a measly 862 euros which has shrank to 818 and keeps shrinking while goods' prices and taxes are going up, while my mother was working from 15 y.o. in factories, opened up her own small town store/newsagents at the age of 30 and retired at 57 earning herselt the amazing amount of 678 euros which has shrank to 625, and which keeps shrinking. Unless people are really bothered by the age my parents managed to retire, they will notice the age they started working (yes, underaged) and what they currently earn - unlike similar aged people in the West who started retiring at 65 and end up "rich" (their word, at least here in the UK), their Greek counterparts retire at 60 and will never become rich with what they will be earning.

Civil servants had it somewhat better off than the general population as far as taxation went (they were receiving a bit lowered salary during their years of service and were given back this percentage when they retired, an amount that could even reach 70k euros in rare, well-payed positions), but in general, they were just a percentage of the population.

Please try to bear in mind that for the poor state of the Greek finances, it's not mainly the population to be blamed. Since when is the salary of people the only reason a country goes broke? I am an enemy of civil servants and never once wanted to become one or even tried to be (although I spent 9 months of civil service in the army, which was mandatory), but not because of what they earned, but because of the mentality which affected pretty much everyone born after 1980 and degenerated them into deadbrains that wanted to get a country job and earn money.

I know what I said may not be enough to change your opinions even by a slightly bit - when someone is bombarded daily by newsreels about "bad wealthy Greeks/Poles/Spaniards/Italians/Portuguese/whatever who want to destroy the euro and our country, even though we keep dropping trunkloads of money in these black hole countries", it's easy to be affected and just blame the tip of the iceberg, which in this case, are the Greek civil servants. Yes, they are to blame, they are a part of the iceberg, but they are only the tip - and you know how icebergs are fucking big underneath the sea's surface.

The people yesterday voted and it was a weird decision. It doesn't lead anywhere and we'll have another election, possibly in the summer. The 3 old political parties (right wing, socialists, leftists) have started breaking up into other parties by new people and the results are weird - the extreme right, traditionally earning 0.4% managed to gather a whopping 6.97%. What's apparent is that the people finally want to punish the culprits who took them into this mess. I don't know if they can. If you ask me, I doubt it. As I said, the country hasn't matured politically - I hope I am wrong.

As for the actual current stance in Greece: People are divided. Some say it's best to keep up the austerity measures (I think so too, but I don't plan to return soon, so what I think is irrelevant), others say that's enough is enough, let's leave the europeans to their machinations, let them find another guinea pig and let's try to survive on our own but proudly, not giving land and water to them. Yesterday's elections show that many people start understanding it's about the latter, survival, and voted for the new parties that oppose the austerity measures, but we'll have to wait and see.

The count has ended, you can see the results here:

[url=http://ekloges.ypes.gr/v2012a/public/index.html#{"cls":"main","params&quot]http://ekloges.ypes.gr/v2012a/public/index.html#{"cls":"main","params&quot[/url];:{}}

First: New Democracy, one of the three old parties, pro-IMF: 18.85%
Second: Syriza, mid-hardcore leftists, anti-IMF, 16.78%
Third: Pasok, socialists, second of the three old parties, pro-IMF, 13.18%
Fourth: Independent Hellenes, new party, first elections, first time in the parliament, anti-IMF, 10.60%
Fifth: Communist Party, third old party, anti-IMF & EU, 8.48%
Sixth: Golden Dawn, extreme national socialists, first ever time in the Parliament, anti-IMF & EU, 6.97%
Seventh: Democratic Left, mid-hardcore leftists, first elections, first ever time in the Parliament, 6.11%

The rest are parties that do not make it to the Parliament. Abstinence was 35%. Yes, 35%.

A coalition is inevitable because for a party to rule, they need to have 42% of the votes. You can understand how the old parties were hurt, if you consider that in past elections, they all managed to gather this 42% on their own.

Screw the IMF! I hope the Greek coalition manages to move away from IMF support. In Bolivia the IMF made it illegal to catch the rain which falls from the sky. Think about that. And so so much more. But seriously, they made it a jail-able offense to catch rain water in a cup. They'd rather you die of thirst if you can't pay a water bill, than to find a way to get your water which doesn't put money in their friends pockets. Screw them! They are evil. They hurt our people. They must go!

Hmmm. Maybe Google Bolivia Water Wars? How'd you miss this? Oh yeah, state controlled media + apathy.

The World Bank gets much of the flack for that. But the IMF was also involved. They are both evil. Here is a cliff notes version for those who want a short video presentation... http://youtu.be/aTKn17uZRAE

http://worldsavvy.org/monitor/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=731&Itemid=1177

I did actually, found those, and all I got was law 2029, which was passed by the Bolivian Goverment and had a privatization of Water (aka no longer a public work, but a private one). Nothing about passes, nothing about fines for collecting rainwater, nothing about people being in jail for it. So my surprise was why IMF was responsible for it (if I say "Make the roads safer", and you say "We'll shoot anyone going over the speed limit", am I responsible for killing those who drive fast?), plus because there is only a "The broad nature of Law 2029 led many to claim that the government would require a license be obtained for people to collect rainwater from their roofs", with emphasis added by me.
So, as I said before, give me a link, not "rumour", "hearsay" or "everyone knows". A link of an arrest, a law, a fine or anything where it says that in Bolivia it is illegal to collect the rainwater.

Edit: Currently reading the link by Licurg (thank you btw), back in 5
Edit 2: Small read, goes like this. Private company handles water, most areas have access to running water, assuming they can pay for it. People cannot pay, they start protesting, riots ensue. Understandable, but no mention of any fines for rainwater, or it being illegal. Of course, you cannot survive only on rainwater, especially since you won't have enough each and every day.

The World Bank gets much of the flack for the Bolivian Water Wars. But the IMF was also involved. They are both evil. Here is a cliff notes version for those who want a short video presentation... http://youtu.be/aTKn17uZRAE

WhiteElk, maybe you should read this:


http://peakwater.org/2011/03/collecting-rainwater-now-illegal-in-many-states-as-big-government-claims-ownership-over-our-water/

(... blah blah blah ... not enough attention devoted. Seriously? A few minutes of googling and you got it? Really. No wonder history repeats, and the public remains clueless to their enslavement).

Dude this was over ten years ago. Your gonna have to do your own research as I've done mine, then moved on to far more than I can handle at the moment. Find your own links. But please invest due diligence.

Thank you for the link, part about rainwater is from 0:33 to 0:41 it seems, even though I still find it exaggerated. Guess we need a bolivian lawyer to tell us whether it's actually illegal to collect rainwater or not.

P.S. My whole issue is due to the rainwater, I do not doubt that there was water privatization and riots due to the IMF involvement in Bolivia.