@TwilightBard - You do realize that if you are wrong, a slight a chance that might be, the game is essentially over?

Hadn't muttly asked to hold the hammer, I would have already voted. Plus, I'll let Baron answer nmillar.

Not sure what this means either...

I will not be claiming as it has no benefit to town nor am I in a position where claiming will help me. Itai has been clear where his vote will be going so to some degree there is no imminent danger. At this point I am waiting until he sees fit to vote.

That depends who Red chooses to use his vig kill on. But, honestly? While there is a chance that I might be wrong, I honestly don't think so. Muttly is scum, and as for Red, I'd hammer him myself if I wasn't so sure of having found scum.

He pushed Lynch all Lurkers day 1, his arguments against Red are weak, in fact the only thing his arguments had going for him was Red's reaction. His reactions now are unhelpful to town, and if he lives it's easy to remove one of the people who are focused on his wagon and try to keep there from being enough votes to lynch him. He's taken the focus completely off of everyone else, so it's harder to find his scumbuddies (Although I'm quite curious about Stuart at this stage of the game).

Itai sounds really scummy right now. He is so eager to hammer Red_Baron even when some people didn't have any opportunity to comment on Red's claim. Robbeasy, Stuart, JoeSapphire, Peanutbrittle. Quite a lot of people. I think he is mafia togeter with muttly. But the thing Red's play doesn't corelate with survivor at all makes me really uneasy.

Can someone on the Baron wagon please make a summary of the case against him? I'm very interested in what the full case is, and jumping into that wall of text is not something that sounds interesting.

Convince me, hell, do it and I'll drop the hammer right now. I'll be around for the next few hours.

I'm not sure Reds play doesn't correlate with survivor - play the numbers, while there are more Town players he will side with Town - only when there is a levelling between Mafia and Town would he lean towards the Mafia , I would say. Early on like it is now, it's in his interests to hunt Scum, I would say.

Best Hiding spot in existence is right in plain sight. It's also fairly hard to keep.

Indeed it is :) But as the security guard I might also have to stand in view quite often. I do also like my own hide, but since thiefs killed my mother I fell inclined a bit towards helping honest folks. Though I did kill the thief later and lose my police job. But hey, once a good guy, always somewhat of a good guy.

As to your question nmillar, I believe my name is: Mr Kessack - Although now I am quite excited to see what you'll do for it. And in regards of those saying I could join with scum, well they'll have to be pretty damn good a fooling me to believe them town before I would do that. The whole case has just ripped open the hatred for thiefs and others kinds of scum.

That part aside: Twilightbard isn't it mafia 9 where there is talk about the multiple mafia? Just to be sure that you didn't get them confused :P It might also just be me who have overlooked such a discussion in this game.

When I read Muttly saying that we "Have no idea how many mafia there are." (post 572), my brain translated it to multiple mafia, not mafia members, as mafia on it's own purals as multiple groups (I think, or maybe that's just how I read it)

Ah okay :D - Was just me then.

And I took it from you without reading it properly and did the same mistake. Sorry.

And what about NK? Wouldn't active scum-hunter draw NK?

Alright, got some things gathered up, and doing a reread, I think I've got something with Muttly. I'm going to start with one of his reads from early/mid day 1.

Now, looking at this strikes me as a bit odd, especially as an early day 1 post. 5 counts of people he'd be comfortable for lynching for lurking. 1 count of someone he claims lurking, but wouldn't feel comfortable lynching. Judging from the time period involved (this post was on December 21st, the game started on the 14th), I'm feeling something dubious about this.

The note that the vote on nmillar is going to be claimed to be prodding by Z and Vitek sounds like he's trying to brush off the reasons as an excuse to make people look at this harder. Crazybear and Stuart town leaning, and Red Baron and Peanut as unknown.

The reads strike me as odd here. So willing to put 5 people up for lynching for lurking, no reads on 2 people, the only reads on 2 people being about their odd vote on someone he's comfortable lynching for lurking, 1 person that he's not comfortable lynching, but still files him as a lurker. And 2 town reads...

The Crazybear lynch is nearly impossible to properly analyze considering it's a very basic policy lynch. I do think it's worth noting though that he did point out Crazybear not saying anything. Interesting though to see that muttly never really commented on the lynch itself, and definitely did not vote for it.

I DO find 429 very interesting, especially how he turned an analysis on the Z kill into an attack on Baron, when itai was first to vote, both of them essentially returning their votes on their Day 1 targets (Itai not even removing his vote on Stuart at the time of the lynch).

I find it hard to put the blame for a policy lynch on the hammerer at the time of a close deadline. It doesn't make them town, and it doesn't reveal them as scum, they were simply there at a time when the choice was, Hammer or No-Lynch, and in that case, I don't think many people would choose No-Lynch.

Muttly calls his argument the 'First solid scum-tell of the game', when Vitek turns around and notes that it seems like a big overreaction (and honestly, I feel the same way, it's also an easy way to accumulate votes on someone).

As for Stuart being the easiest lynch...I think you're giving the fact that he was almost lynched more credit then it's due. Yes, he was at the time very unhelpful for town which made it hard to get a real read on him, but I would hesitate to call him an easy lynch.

I find this to be unnecessary, and really odd. A lot of us will put up votes, cause pressure, and whatnot even at the beginning of the day, even if they hammered the final person. Revotes aren't uncommon either, so this line of logic, falls apart, it feels exaggerated, like the rest of the argument against Red.

Honestly, I think that's the major point of that entire case. It's been overexaggeration vs. overreaction. The argument and pressure goes in circles until well, this happened. But honestly, except for other people having to ask questions to try to get other opinions, Muttly has been completely focused on lynching Baron all damn day.

I have two conclusions to draw from this, and one of those is him being Mafia, which I fully believe he is.

Pre-Edit: Damn forum software keeps finding errors between my capital letters in things. *Grumbles*

So we have gone through another round of the same theories. You have presented nothing new beyond what Baron has already done save you dont like that I find Lynching Lurkers before your self approved D3 distasteful.

Also, I am curious how you read the fact that I asked to put a halt to an almost certain lynch to obtain additional information. If it is to "seem more town" I would have to say thats one hell of a risk at L2 and now L1 to be playing that game if I were scum. I think if you decided to take whatever preconceived notion you have for me and remove it for a moment, thats pretty clear.

I would like to point out that the entire case against me began because I ID'ed a third party player whos role is predominately anit-town and mafia-wiki that you guys like to sample, states its a "prime target for lynch". So for flushing out a bad guy I have become a target. I find that somewhat counterproductive for town.

Ok, please elaborate what we've learned from the Crazybear lynch, on how people have read his words and how he defended himself. How we benefited more from lynching a lurker instead of lynching someone who was acting scummy, no matter how active they were.

I'm not saying Day 3 is 'an appropriate time' to lynch lurkers, but day one is choosing to ignore everything else that's going on. If someone is acting scummy, they get lynched. It's what's happening now, it's what the town chose to ignore in favor of a lynch that had no defense at all, which served no one but the Mafia.

WRONG! I didn't peg you as scum 'until I read everything' I threw out Day 2 altogether when I noted that your call for Lynch all Lurkers was scummy because you and Baron went around in circles more times then the average race car driver.

As far as 'asked to put a halt to an almost certain lynch to obtain additional information" I have to ask what information you think you'd obtain? To figure out who would be a good nightkill? Honestly, you aren't defending yourself, you're just turning things in circles until the person arguing against you looks scummy.