This is another favorite. Basically your entire "case", if we shall call it that, against me is that I asked you questions and you didnt like it. Why is that exactly? If my case is so crappy, why have you dedicated hours to defending it? Could you not have simply pointed out the flaws (of which you have yet to do to) and moved on? As you have said yourself, I have not changed at all what I have accused you of. Instead you came right back at me with all kinds of wild claims that you have backed off of as people call you on them. Your desperation screams of someone looking to avoid any questioning at all.

Include Itai all you like, I focus on one scum at a time. If youre upset that no one is reading your posts, be upset no more. Everyone is. And everyone is seeing right through them.

Some of you might notice that I haven't taken each paragraph any more, as some commented it got too long and I am now making an attempt to keep things short. I do however still find that it makes for a more messy post.

If you read any of them and was not scum, but honest town. Then you wouldn't make the accusation you just did. I am only pointing out flaws in your accusations. I have yet to post any claims... And yes, I didn't like you is your post which asked basically no questions, but was instead a accusation of what you called a scum-tell (Oh, and yes I am defending myself, because we need to hunt the scum not just bow our heads when scum starts accusing). The reasons it was based on was so lousy that yes, it began my case against you. However it has just continued to grow with each of your passing posts.

Stuart: forgot to reply to your posts as I otherwise intended:

Your little gem is a quote from RVS where I comment on the effectiveness of Zchinque much like others did at that point. Your comparing that to something not part of RVS, where I also comment that he was feared? Your point being?

And yes, I have become much more vocal, due to two obvious reasons:

One: The holiday is over.... which is pretty much why others are getting vocal again..

Two: I am being accused of being scum by one who is trying his damnedest to make a case against me, so far in vain. Of course I am more vocal in order to defend it (longs posts). But the increased activity is due to the holiday having passed.

If I was afraid of Zchinque do you think I would have made my complain posts against him as I did? I highly doubt it.

Maybe you should try finding "gems" in something muttly13 has written, would like your thoughts on it, as I seem to find it odd that your only commenting and quoting stuff I made, even going all way back to RVS. But I am certain its due to the fact that I've been commenting on your posts and others as well and as mentioned before I don't think any scum would do what muttly13 is doing, if you were scum as well. Hence my rather positive town read from you - and you helped clarify an issue of doubt.

Finally caught up :)

It may take me a while to process but I do read every post. Red I found your posts an enjoyable read. Sorry if this post is a bit of a mess but finding the whole Muttly/Red thing confusing.

Both Muttly and Red seem entrenched in their position that the other is mafia. At first glance it seems Muttly put forward a theory on what he though had happened. Was waiting for a response.Then Red reacted with his post by post wall of text.

But reading Muttly's post again it seems he'd already made up his mind about Red been mafia. As he ignores Itai's vote on Stuart. Along with saying Red hammered a confirmed townie. Later he said:

In which case you could have just said after hammering. Instead by adding confirmed townie it makes Red appear guilty. As only the mafia knew Crazybear was town at that point.


Can see Red not wanting to drop his target from yesterday if he still thinks there's questions to be answered. But after having it pointed out that part of his case against Muttly is wrong he didn't even seem to reconsider his opinion of Muttly. Which I find odd.

@muttly do you think Robbeasy is mafia?

Welcome Twilight

Correct. And I had a strong feeling he was mafia at that point, as I mentioned I pushed him on it. Still I was going to allow his to respond before placing my vote. Primarily because I just think its a better way of playing, and it proved to be such with Baron making it all the more obvious to me he was scum with his response.

Not really sure. I felt his comments about agreeing I had a point about Baron and that Stuart was likely town then proceeding to ignore it and declare me Scum based on his own method of play was funny. Again, at the very least I would have expected someone to push for some more info especially if they thought the argument was sound instead of going with a completely gut feel.

Long story short, I would say I would certianly revisit him D3 but now I want to concentrate on the scum thats obvious.

Thanks you sirrah le Twilightbard. It is very good of you to step up.
So two dropouts and one vanishment and we're only on day two eh? Bad juju...

So okay I didn't look to hard but of those I said I'ld look at... NMillar defends Rob for this supposed 'Real Life' they both seem to have, whatever that is. Ye it's an odd thing.
Pazzer seems normal I guess.
Sharim is being used by both muttly and redbaron as a secondary target. I suppose that sort of puts him town if I'm assuming one or the other is mafia.
Orryyrro has lurked right out of the game.

I think what's interesting is that each muttly and the baron are convinced of the other's badness. I'm inferring this; words like scum have been used with great deliberation. If it's not right for me to say that tell me off but I think it's fair.
Well I'm going to do it: vote RedBaron. Look at that.

Good morning friends. I'm all caught up and I seem to finally be in a position to join in the fun. And what a lot of fun has happened since then. Here's a bit of a rushed post before I unpack. First: much needed responses.

I was called away to an unexpected funeral of a close relative, and didn't have steady internet access or the right frame of mind to keep up. Honestly I don't blame you at all for having suspicions, I hammered away at the lurkers pretty hard on Day 1 myself. That being said, if you want further evidence I wasn't just trying to lurk (and I don't blame you) I'll point out that I haven't posted on the GOG forums at all since my game post, and I also suspended my much beloved Hero Quest forum game for the duration of my trip. Hopefully that makes everyone feel a little better about my absence.

I'm allowed to vote, right? :P

I'm like you, I don't really have any. He's a very background player that has really avoided suspicion from me, but doesn't seem to post enough or in a way that pegs him as a confirmed town. I think of Day 2 lurking becomes a much flimsier argument; it seems way more likely for a person to disappear for real life reasons then as a nefarious plan. My personal (probably wrong) thoughts on lurking at this point.

That being said, Robb's an enigma. At this point I think we have better suspects, but I'm definitely paying attention to how he votes.

I love this theory, but I think it's too perfect to be true, and the Baron is right that holidays ending means more vocal players across the board. So unfortunately, that means I can't really commit to that thread of thinking as much as I would like to.


As for reads from me:
The Muttly/Baron argument is pretty bizarre. If I were to pick which player was scummier in that match-up, I'd go with Baron based on not much more than a gut instinct after reading all the posts I missed. I also agree with with Pazzer's notion that even after Baron's case is picked apart by others he seems totally unwilling to back down or reconsider his position and instead builds up an even bigger case. Obviously I understand he wants to defend himself, but it's making me uncomfortable and inclined to side with the more solid arguments Muttly is posting. Both arguments seem totally full of holes though.

ital is also creeping up my suspect list, as is Vitek though I lost my notes on why he was. There were reasons, I promise! I'll have to get back to this point later.

Nmiller and Robb continue to be kind of a mystery, but I lean town for Nmillar based on the infrequent but sensible posts.

I like Pazzer and Joe and their sensible posts, and so they seem not-scum to me, but I am a very trusting person. Not the best mafia game quality I imagine.

I still think Stuart leans town but I don't like the lurking argument anymore. Any mafia player would, at this point, be pretty much unable to get away with lurking. Throwing out mentions of lurkers at this point seems to me like an easy way to try to build a train on a townie. Of course, lurking can still be a powerful mafia tool but I feel like real life issues are far more likely than nefarious plotting and scheming. It can really go either way I suppose, but I'd rather work on sussing out active scummy players than jumping on another deadline induced lurk train. But again I'm chalking it up to first time player learning experience and going along with the tone set on Day 1. I mostly wrote this paragraph to theorize on lurking,

Interested to hear from the Bard. I thought Orryyrro had a kind of arrogant playstyle, and he was a big suspect for me. Hopefully you can continue his game without flashing up huge warning bells. No pressure, pal.

Hey guys, let me read through things (won't take long, but I've only been skimming til Rod asked me to jump in) I should have something constructive once I get some crap done.

Great to hear and hope you do.. I am currently in shock for the amount of people who apparently finds that for defending myself and pointing out flaws in muttly's, I come off as the most scummy to most, with Joe (too my dismay) being the last to vote (not without much reason other than?). Makes me truly curious as to what the setup is in this game, but hey only time will tell :P (Mod used a smiley, so guess they are accepted)

A question of puzzlement for Joe:
The word scum has been used too much? I've mentioned mafia several times as well if that helps. Muttly13 have gone mostly with scum, if I recall correct. But your point is? Or I am I misunderstanding what your saying?

So far we have two who have mentioned my case against muttly13 being blown, clearly you have not understood my case against muttly13. In this case Penut I must disagree with you, although I am aware that you properly still haven't had time to read what I wrote. But yea, as to why I disagree: I have not had one case torn apart then made a bigger one. I have one case against muttly13 which contains several arguments based on his accusation against me, each of which is based on reason and explanation of my actions. The only part of said arguments that wasn't as I intended, was due to 1: being an error of my part with a mix up , 2 - being uncertain as to who was considered the hammer due to odd vote count. Now this is a tiny bit of what I have against muttly13, who's entire case it one big hole. None of which he has ever admitted or even addressed. Actually he has outright refused to. That is not town behavior and considering it to be so is very very odd.

Stating that both mine and muttly13's case is full of holes, I partly agree. Except: My only case against him is who many holes there is in his accusation against me, so stating that both a lot of holes, is basically saying: Yes muttly13's argument is full of holes, as you rightly pointed out, but the point you made about the holes is full of holes, so I am voting for the one who started the case full of holes.. I lost track.. Any other feel the same way?

Maybe I should list my problems against muttly13 one by one, in easy to read format.

Anyone up for that? I know that muttly13 will never answer anything anyway, but hope is always golden. If he truly is town, then I don't see how he can make such a lousy case, but haven't played with him enough to know if its just his style. However, due to the many contradictions and outright crappy reasons I am assuming he is mafia (or scum, if joe doesn't mind me using the word?).

I think this is a great idea, and I look forward to seeing it. I lost track too.

Like I said, I'm not voting either way because both your arguments and muttly's make logical leaps and missteps. I'm just judging based on general reactions, not step by step procedures. That's why I'm holding off on voting till I take a closer look/more is discussed.

Wow - finally caught up, that was some reading right there over the last few days....

In the Red corner, we have Red_Baron, slugging away with WOT's all over the place and many many reasons why his main accuser Muttly13 is scum...

In the blue corner we have Muttly13, just as convinced Red_Baron is scum, based mainly on the quick vote for Stuart early doors.

I think the gist of the whole thing comes down to this -

a) Red_Baron votes for Stuart early day 2 , making it 2 votes on Stuart
b) Muttly jumps on it, and after beating around the bush for a few posts, votes for Red_Baron
c) Red_Baron says he was only re-applying pressure to his main day1 suspect, and that 2 votes is hardly a train.

One sure tell we can get from this - they can't both be Mafia - that would be one HELL of a play.
They could easily both be Town and the real Mafia are laughing their socks off at it all.
Or one is Town and one Isn't.

Im going to consider Muttlys reasoning first.

He's saying Red_Baron jumped on Stuart for a quick lynch day2, trying to get a bandwagon going early. My main arguments against this are that its far too early in the day for Mafia to be employing these tactics, and its far too obvious. No self respecting Mafia would do that , surely to god?
Yes, I know I'm re-iterating my earlier theory somewhat , but I really think Muttly is barking up the wrong tree here.

So what of Barons reasons for voting Muttly?
Theres a lot of text to get through, but the main ones are a) Called Red a 100% scum-tell, yet still didnt vote for him (a Mafia trait), b) A belief in my theory and the reasonings for it.

Since then we've had a lot of back and forth. Im not a huge fan of picking peoples posts apart with little quotes, as Baron does, as stuff can easily be taken out of context and be used to imply with something that isn't. Also - one vote for him, and he's off on a MASSIVE rant against Muttly, not even slowing down when its pointed out that a couple of his reasonings are in fact wrong.
One other thing crosses my mind about Baron - he got mixed up once and said 'lurking lyncher' (#427). Little slip there? His last few days posts have been classic Lyncher play, focussing entirely on his target.

I see theres been a few posts since i started this WOT, so I'll add my voice to the call for Red_Baron to list his points against Muttly. It would be nice if Muttly could respond as well.

Votecount:

2 - Muttly13 (Robbeasy, Red_Baron)
2 - Red_Baron (Muttly, Joesapphire)
1 - Stuart9001 (Itai.sharim)

Not voting: Nmillar, Pazzer, Twilightbard, Vitek, Stuart, Peanutbrittle

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline is 8am GMT 26 January.

I've already sent a PM to Rod, but just wanted to make everyone else aware that I'm going to be away between 20th and 27th January, so unfortunately I won't be around when the deadline occurs.

Well, there's still a week until 20th.
A lot can happen in a week....

Red had only made two posts all day when Muttly got his strong feeling that Red was mafia. So have gone back and looked at them.

Now is that town stating their opinion about what happened or is it mafia trying to look town. It just seems too obvious a mafia tell. But I assume that's what Muttly picked up on. I know I found the first part odd so asked Red about it. His response was

One of the reasons Muttly gave for suspecting Red was he didn't allow any new info to present itself. But before voting for Stuart Red had asked about the case against Orryrro.

Surely that's looking for new information.

Don't think you answered this so will ask again why do you think this about Zchinque?