NoNo, I still find him very suspicious, it just mean that I don't have that much ground to support my idea about him having knowledge about the game that I don't. In relation to night-kill that is, since he only mentioned that it was a contradiction that I hoped for new info from the night kill.. though I am not sure how the heck it can be a contradiction and as such I found that if he knew that night-kill was not necessarily going to occur then maybe that could be how it could be a contradiction and added with the sentence I thought he wrote, I found it very suspect or simply just very weird. Now I still find that accusation a very scummy attempt to push me as a target, for all the reasons I already mentioned, however it means that one of my reasons isn't what I thought it was, hence its not really as a good a reason anymore and it explains why stuart had trouble understanding the argument. Which is why I apologized for mixing it up, but no - muttly13 still got my vote and I still consider him scum.

I'll not quote in full from this as it seems to have been too long to fit in one go, hence the need for a filler.

Just curious, but what historic reason?

Historic may have been the wrong word but what I meant is that Vitek set of alarm bells once so I still hold a little suspicion, but not enough to label him scum at this time.

Vitek and myself has already explained to someone else...

Even if the "we" thing has been explained does that mean that I still am disqualified from finding it weird? Also it it your place to be explaining things for Vitek? He does a good enough job of it on his own in #465.

He is pushing your ideas and thoughts out...

I mean that the same ideas seem to be occurring to muttly such as:

This was my first thought on seeing that Zchinque was killed in the night, but Muttly beat me to posting it, leaving me with little to post other than to repeat Muttly. Is it such a strange idea that two people can independently draw the same conclusion from the same evidence?

Well, if I have any recollection of a post like that it must be from RVS...
I have tried again to fin the post I was referring to and I can't find it, I may have misinterpreted one you did post or attributed someone else's post to you in my memory, if either of these cases is true then I apologise.

Huh? How can muttly13's case against me be buddying up?
Huh? How can you have so badly misread that paragraph. Try re-reading this properly, its not all about you. I was actually answering Vitek's question to me about my opinion on Muttly. Actually the entire post was an answer to Vitek so I don't really know why you are doing an analysis of it.

Its only 19 hours since he wrote last and mentioned troubles in the family..
I missed that bit in his last post. (hope I have not caused any offense) but I was speaking about the game overall. I have not really noticed many posts and what I have seen has not felt like it has contributed much.
"...we have others more silent/equally silent with not much of a reason..." I don't disagree, Peanut just stands out more than others, possibly because I feel that I didn't see him pick up the pace like most others did at the end of day 1. I could be wrong, I was just chucking out ideas in answer to Vitek's question. I'll have to go over it again and see.

Hehe, well I tend to find energy from these discussions
I noticed.

It was kind of a joke, and kind of a question, (a jokey question perhaps?) and also I was hoping to show how things can be misinterpreted (if indeed I have misinterpreted it) to seem more sinister than they are maybe.

And the cracks continue to show... Baron responded the way he did because he was cornered, simple as that. He has yet to display any plausible reason for stating he wanted more info, and then immediately voting on the easy train. Thats because he has none and his best mode of escape was to try and implicate me once the light was shined on him. His deep suspicion of me started right after I pressed him for info in with a single post, really? If that doesnt define hitting the mark, I dont know what does.

What again?? You simply can't help it can you. And let me follow you on this one, and without taking each paragraph although it makes for an easier overview:

Lets take the points again: ITS NOT A FREAKING TRAIN! How can it ever be a train if two people, now one person, is voting for it. And at the same time how the heck can you so calmly state that one of your prime reasons is that I picked the easy train, when its:
- Not a train
- Not easy (several stated they figured him town, and 2 of the people besides me an Itai whom voted for stuart is dead).
- And I weren't the first to vote for it, nor the one to keep my vote on him, unlike Itai, which you still aren't mentioning at all...

Lets move on: Its not a crack, most of my case against you remains exactly the same, the only thing it does is changing how much I thought I've gotten as hints from you in regards of the knowledge thing I mentioned several times already.

A plausible reason for why I wanted more info?? Are you seriously going there in a mafia game? By God! Why would I not want more info in a mafia game? Its the whole point of the game, and stating that I hope we gain something of info from the desperate lynch and a potential harmful night kill (as it showed to be), is pretty damn reasonable.

And a single post? You good sir had 3 posts before I responded and yes my deep suspicious of you started due to those 3 posts as those were the posts where I saw you throw reason aside in a crazy stunt to get a lynch going, while clearly not voting yourself, an action I also find incredibly scummy (and yes, know you have voted now, after being called on it.)

Oh and you have yet to explain any of things I've pointed out, still just coming forth with the same accusations, of which none still make any sense to me. And if your going to talk about cracks, please do make the right reasonings that makes those cracks yourself. All your doing now is restating your own lousy case against me, in the hope that someone will eventually join in.

I am grateful for joe pointing out the flaw, since it meant that my view of things was a little different, and knowing now that it was stuart who wrote it and that he apparently mis-read us to be me and Zchinque.. dunno why, but yea - basically means that I get the point with the sentence and find it less suspect. However that was stuarts post as it has so correctly been pointed out, not yours. Nothing is changed in my view of you being scum, only slightly as to why you wrote as you did.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In regards of stuarts post. Yea, I actually meant that post as a help (explaining the "we" word, since it had already been discussed and the thing with penut), but I guess due to being engrossed in my discussion with muttly13 I ended up making it a discussion as well.. Properly why I mis-read the buddying up part. Though if you read what I wrote I do also point out that muttly13 is not really buddying up to you, he is calling you an easy lynch train and thats the only thing he really have said in your defense. And yea, figured thats what you meant with historic, just wanted to clarify it weren't some meta reason.

Final: I like your notice - Hehe, yea I show my discussion nature a lot in these games. Bad thing is I also tend to make huge posts because of it. But heck, maybe that will make it easier for people to get a proper read of me.. or maybe not.

Agreed. Thats why I pointed out that you immediately went to try an lynch Stuart D2 before any information came out (at least try and warp the entire sentence instead of leaving everything after a comma off). And this is what I continue to question and you continue to dodge. Well, actually you arent dodging i suppose, you just cant come up with any reason and sane town player could have for this. Which makes you scum.

Yey, crisis averted - got internets.

@Red_Baron - The part where you quote the backup lynch thing. I thought muttly actually meant that YOU shouldn't have jumped so quickly on the wagon because in the case no suitable was found, YOU could always vote for him - hence, backup lynch. It is just one part where I think you were twisting mutlly logic. There was another I wanted to comment on but you already said you attributed posts to the wrong people.

@Joe - Stuart was my main suspect at the end of day 1 and at the start of day 2. I wanted to keep my vote on mt favorite suspect. Plus, in a hindsight - just look at the discussion it brought.

Anyhow, don't really know why mutlly ignored my vote almost completely while on the other hand pushed Baron so hard.

Simple, you didnt say you wanted to wait for additional information and then immediately throw a vote out. Your timing is also egregious, but Reb_Baron kindly spelled it out for everyone with his words and actions.

I thought again about Red_Baron twisting mutlly logic and then it dawned on me - the one who might be doing it could be me! So, I would welcome a clarification on that point from muttly.

Not entirely sure what you mean by this could you clarify.

Assume you're referring to Red here but how was Crazybear a confirmed townie at the time he was hammered?

Why didn't you vote then?

Find this slightly strange as surely you read peoples roles at end of game 8. In which case you'd know Joe allowed the doc to protect himself. It even says on the wiki self targeting is up to the mod.

In fact I didn't read it. :-)

Twilight could protect himself?
PRE-EDIT: Oh, I checked it, he indeed protected himself. Wow, we were lucky he did not protect himself the night we killed him.
Eh, that's quite negative of Joe's setup. If he protected himself each night it would make him unkillable.

It says he could self-protect but even sooner it states: "Doctors are not allowed to self-target."
Even when they can self-protect, which IMO, is very rare.

You don't have single person that you think is most likely town?

Not sure what youre asking here...


He was not. He was confirmed after. This was all in past tense.


I requested information from Baron. Clearly I was leaning on him as scum. However, I offered the opportunity to respond, and he did, in most hysterical fashion. Finally, I believe in getting further information from the evening actions, which Baron either doesnt realize or chose to ignore. Since he has mentioned his experience with Forum Mafia in the past, I am forced to assume he knows there are power roles and would be within his right to assume there would be some in this game. Yet he waited for nothing... No further info, not even a press on Stuart for information. He just used dead Zs hand to point back at his own juiciest target in hopes of a D2 quick lynch.

Sorry for off-topic but I remembered now that I was strongarm in Game 8 so I would be able to kill Twiligh if he protected himself.
I remembered this myself and certainly did not recieved any message reminding me it.
I am sorry, Joe. I hope you will be able to forgive me one day. :-P

Rob's "If I were scum it would be exactly the sort of play I would be making." causes me discomfort... I dunno it seems a BIT ridiculous a scheme.
Can you tell me similiar sort of things you attempted to make when you were mafia in game #7? Or any other time you've been mafia Rob? Is that an unfair question?

I'm repeating the question because you've posted once since I asked it and I don't want you to forget it.

So The Baron and Muttly,
they're both pushing hard, and both have used slightly dodgy logic.
Assuming one is town and one is mafia I'm leaning RedBaron is mafia. They could both be town of course.
But I don't know...

Being the quick second vote IS suspicious even with reasoning. It makes it look like an attempt to build a train. I gave Vitek a hard time for it, makes sense to give the Baron a hard time too.

But I think Muttly's current argument is "[RedBaron is suspicious because he didn't do any role fishing.]" (interpolated). Which is a pretty poor argument.

argh. Maybe we're just distracting ourselves.
I'm finding it difficult to find something to say.
Okay, speedreads of the whole cast:

Leaning Scum: RedBaron, Robbeasy, Stuart, Orryyrro
Leaning Town: Muttly PeanutBrittle
Everyone else: Vitek NMillar MtSharim Pazzer.

Okay... I'll finish the evening by taking a look at those in my "everyone else" column and having a think about them. Got to start somewhere.

Seems to be quite a battle going on between Mutty and Red. Can see where Muttly is coming from. As the quick vote for Stuart doesn't seem to gel with wanting new info. Though not sure about the initial lack of vote.

Found Red's reaction curious. As he went though Mutty's post point by point. Which resulted in a long post which didn't seem to say very much.

Interesting choice of words in something I know. As how would Muttly know you knew something?


I don't understand how you got the idea there was no mafia night kill from Muttly's post.

What do you mean by this?