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Krypsyn: For me, right now, it is, let me see... $141,118. I would like each tax paper to write a check for that, then we shoot any lawmaker that proposes a law that puts us over-budget. Heck, I am fairly well off, I'll write a check for twice that, given those conditions... fair? :)
While I see your point, and I'd love to pay off the debt too, let's assume the government would still need to levy an income tax to operate thereafter (even if we were somehow able to pay off the deficit), without going into debt (or going further into debt).

I know you likely pay your fair share, in fact I'm sure you're in my boat (only worse) paying for others who claim to be paying their share but actually aren't.

I guess no one is answering, though, so oh well:)
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TwilightBard: ...
The issue is not so much that people choose facts to support their positions as it is people just have no facts at all. Look at the post directly above you and below you. People are hasty to make sweeping, absurd claims without any regard for justifying their opinions.

If government and politics were as simple as some people here think there'd be no need for government and politics. If you are truly concerned about the state of discourse I recommend "playing dumb" and always ask people simple questions about their positions. A very simple line of socratic questioning will quickly unveil just how much (or how little) someone actually knows about a given subject without escalating emotions. That's what I do in my classes to get conversations started at a baseline level since most people can't defend extreme positions past a question or two.
Post edited October 07, 2012 by tangledblue11
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TwilightBard: ...
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tangledblue11: The issue is not so much that people choose facts to support their positions as it is people just have no facts at all. Look at the post directly above you and below you. People are hasty to make sweeping, absurd claims without any regard for justifying their opinions.

If government and politics were as simple as some people here think there'd be no need for government and politics. If you are truly concerned about the state of discourse I recommend "playing dumb" and always ask people simple questions about their positions. A very simple line of socratic questioning will quickly unveil just how much (or how little) someone actually knows about a given subject without escalating emotions.
The problem is, you're missing the point about playing dumb. I've seen that happen, and the person playing got chewed out.

But, fine. What about consumer protection? You seem to know about Romney's positions, are we going to actually get real consumer protection or are they going to keep telling us that the yapping chihuahua is good enough? I'm curious as to why we keep getting ToS and EULAs that are requiring us to sign away our rights to things settled in fair and impartial courts. It's one thing that really bothers me about business lately.
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TwilightBard: The problem is, you're missing the point about playing dumb. I've seen that happen, and the person playing got chewed out.

But, fine. What about consumer protection? You seem to know about Romney's positions, are we going to actually get real consumer protection or are they going to keep telling us that the yapping chihuahua is good enough? I'm curious as to why we keep getting ToS and EULAs that are requiring us to sign away our rights to things settled in fair and impartial courts. It's one thing that really bothers me about business lately.
If you get chewed out for asking basic questions why are you bothering to talk to whomever that may be? I can't say I have ever witnessed such a situation (either personally or in the workplace/classroom).

To your second bit, I have an answer for you although may not like it. You have unlimited consumer protection already. It's your very own discretion and COMMON SENSE! You are your own consumer protection Superman. If you don't want to consume something because you think you may be ripped off then don't purchase it. Ben Franklin once said "a fool and his money are soon parted" and no amount of regulation will ever change that. If you do not act responsibly then you get what you deserve.

You mentioned ToSs and EULAs. Nobody is forcing you to accept them. I don't use Steam because their terms are unconscionable. Nobody is forcing you to engage in transactions with any shady corporation. Now, if you are the subject of fraudulent or illegal behavior you have recourse. Your state's AG office is a great first step that is extremely effective. A federal solution is a waste of an enormous amount of money that will never yield any meaningful results.
Post edited October 07, 2012 by tangledblue11
^^-- Figured I would add to the above with a direct answer to your question. I do know both Romney's and Obama's positions very well. Under Romney, you will not have a stronger FEDERAL consumer protection apparatus. He would not consider that a valid arena for federal intervention. If that's something you consider very important, Obama is the way to go.
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TwilightBard: The problem is, you're missing the point about playing dumb. I've seen that happen, and the person playing got chewed out.

But, fine. What about consumer protection? You seem to know about Romney's positions, are we going to actually get real consumer protection or are they going to keep telling us that the yapping chihuahua is good enough? I'm curious as to why we keep getting ToS and EULAs that are requiring us to sign away our rights to things settled in fair and impartial courts. It's one thing that really bothers me about business lately.
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tangledblue11: If you get chewed out for asking basic questions why are you bothering to talk to whomever that may be? I can't say I have ever witnessed such a situation (either personally or in the workplace/classroom).

To your second bit, I have an answer for you although may not like it. You have unlimited consumer protection already. It's your very own discretion and COMMON SENSE! You are your own consumer protection Superman. If you don't want to consume something because you think you may be ripped off then don't purchase it. Ben Franklin once said "a fool and his money are soon parted" and no amount of regulation will ever change that. If you do not act responsibly then you get what you deserve.

You mentioned ToSs and EULAs. Nobody is forcing you to accept them. I don't use Steam because their terms are unconscionable. Nobody is forcing you to engage in transactions with any shady corporation. Now, if you are the subject of fraudulent or illegal behavior you have recourse. Your state's AG office is a great first step that is extremely effective. A federal solution is a waste of an enormous amount of money that will never yield any meaningful results.
Ok, Here's a problem. You say I can avoid companies. I disagree. I have no supermarket in my town. When Walmart came in, stores were moved and our main mall was closed down, including our food store. You can't avoid Walmart here if you don't want to drive 10 miles out of the way. And most people do. The big deal is that so many people come from outside of town, just to go to Walmart. And they don't shop anywhere else. Stores are closing left and right here, small mom and pop places, our outlet stores. None of these places can compete with Walmart because most of the goods it gets are sold really cheap at wholesale from China.

Now, gas is pretty expensive, I barely use my car because it costs too much, taxi services are expensive now, I can't really avoid Walmart if I want to survive. And no food stores will come in because they don't want to compete with Walmart. There IS no choice here. The same goes with Cable, it's either Comcast or you better be willing to hook up a dish. There is no choice, there is no consumer protection. There is no market to self regulate itself.
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TwilightBard: Ok, Here's a problem. You say I can avoid companies. I disagree. I have no supermarket in my town. When Walmart came in, stores were moved and our main mall was closed down, including our food store. You can't avoid Walmart here if you don't want to drive 10 miles out of the way. And most people do. The big deal is that so many people come from outside of town, just to go to Walmart. And they don't shop anywhere else. Stores are closing left and right here, small mom and pop places, our outlet stores. None of these places can compete with Walmart because most of the goods it gets are sold really cheap at wholesale from China.

Now, gas is pretty expensive, I barely use my car because it costs too much, taxi services are expensive now, I can't really avoid Walmart if I want to survive. And no food stores will come in because they don't want to compete with Walmart. There IS no choice here. The same goes with Cable, it's either Comcast or you better be willing to hook up a dish. There is no choice, there is no consumer protection. There is no market to self regulate itself.
I love the points you made and these are great questions. I'd like to start with your second scenario since that's easiest to address (and I can relate, I was in the same situation). You mentioned the lack of choice for cable: you either have Comcast or satellite. You actually have a third choice - neither. If both of those options are so terrible that you feel you are being treated unfairly is it worth having cable? I do not have cable and I've been through Cox and Directv. I finally decided it wasn't worth it. The reality of commerce is that you can't always get exactly what you want at all times. Commerce can simply provide you with the "best" services available at a given place/time (and you have to decide whether or not they're good enough for you to buy).

Your first point is more tricky. Obviously in 2012 you have to buy basic goods from somewhere. I usually discuss a lack of competition from a utilities standpoint (government monopolies in most cases). It is a rare case indeed when no competition exists in a marketplace. First, I will say this which should make you feel a little bit better. Your current dilema will not last long. Walmart will not be the only game in town; new businesses will rise that are better situated to compete with Walmart.

So - to answer your scenario directly - do you have any farmer's markets or small-time grocers available from which you can buy your food? If so, you could always purchase non-food items online from Amazon or Walgreens or wherever else and minimize your need to purchase locally. I don't see Wal-Mart as a consumer threat that would necessitate such an arrangement but I'm sure you have your reasons. I will not buy from Best Buy, for example, so anytime I need a cord or whatever I just purchase it online and have it shipped.
Post edited October 07, 2012 by tangledblue11
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USERNAME:tangledblue11#Q&_^Q&Q#GROUP:4#Q&_^Q&Q#LINK:113#Q&_^Q&Q##Q&_^Q&Q#LINK:113#Q&_^Q&Q#
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I posted a reply asking for a youtube of it because I don't trust that link. I suspect a double post will be forthcoming.
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Liberty: Presidential debates don't normally make any difference except for the candidates' behavior in driving their base. Romney's energy has excited the R voters and Obama not seeming to care has depressed the D voters.

But this election has already been over. No Democrat president in the U.S. has ever won re-election since FDR except Clinton... and he didn't even hit 50% of the vote. Obama has never been re-elected to any office except as a state senator (which isn't competitive). I see Romney currently campaigning in states he shouldn't be in like Pennsylvania (which went 48% for Bush in 2004) which is hinting at the internal polling numbers.

Romney's confidence and Obama's lack of energy might also be indicative of the internal polling both campaigns have.
I think it'll be a close race. 47% of Americans don't pay income tax and Mitt Romney (as he was being a hypocrite, as he pas less in tax than my dad does) called them out. Since there's defiantly Democrats who pay income tax, so I actually think Obama will win. After all, Romney was blown out in '08. But, we can't say who'll win right now for sure.
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USERNAME:tangledblue11#Q&_^Q&Q#GROUP:4#Q&_^Q&Q#LINK:115#Q&_^Q&Q#I posted a reply asking for a youtube of it because I don't trust that link. I suspect a double post will be forthcoming.#Q&_^Q&Q#LINK:115#Q&_^Q&Q#
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I'm sorry sir I don't know what point you're trying to get across either in that video or in your comment.
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USERNAME:tangledblue11#Q&_^Q&Q#GROUP:4#Q&_^Q&Q#LINK:118#Q&_^Q&Q#I'm sorry sir I don't know what point you're trying to get across either in that video or in your comment.#Q&_^Q&Q#LINK:118#Q&_^Q&Q#
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I observed from your writing style that you are either a man roleplaying a woman on GOG or you have extremely manly features. Either way, I don't really care.

Also, if you don't want to participate in this discussion, I suggest not. You seem to be very angry over something that is easily avoidable. Calm down :)
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TwilightBard: I wish I could be something other than scared, but I think we might be past that point where I think things can be saved in that regard. We get pulled more and more by the extremes and it makes things worse, not better.
I tend to agree with this. It seems like 1/3 of the population has their own news outlets and they argue with the other 1/3 (who also have their own news outlets). They have become so partisan, even their definitions for terms are different from the opposing side; it is hard to reach consensus when people can't even agree on the basics. Politicians don't try to change this, they don't try to educate anymore (if they ever really did), and they just seem to try to rile up their bases using that side's rhetoric and code phrases. Meanwhile, the middle 1/3 of the voting public is caught in the middle wondering WTF all the hub-bub is about, and they usually end up voting for the guy that seems the least obnoxious.

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orcishgamer: While I see your point, and I'd love to pay off the debt too, let's assume the government would still need to levy an income tax to operate thereafter (even if we were somehow able to pay off the deficit), without going into debt (or going further into debt).
True enough, though without the debt it might be a little easier. I am not sure what the cost of our debt is currently, but it isn't insignificant.

I wasn't seriously proposing that each taxpayer pay off their share of the debt either. at least not all at once, and not all in one lump sum. I am not sure that many folks just have $142K laying around burning a hole in their pockets. It was an off-the-cuff and flippant comment that I left in the post, even after editing it a couple times, because I am a masochist about showing off my ill-conceived comments when I make them... or something... I'll just go with that. ;)

Before we do anything, however, we really do need to get our fiscal house in order. Everyone has their pet programs, and there are few that will be totally happy with any cuts, but most people have to agree that there is a lot of fat in Washington available to be cut. The trouble is that most politicians won't seriously bring up the subject, or try for any sort of compromise, because they are too afraid of losing the next election.

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TwilightBard: Ok, Here's a problem. You say I can avoid companies. I disagree. I have no supermarket in my town. When Walmart came in, stores were moved and our main mall was closed down, including our food store. You can't avoid Walmart here if you don't want to drive 10 miles out of the way. And most people do. The big deal is that so many people come from outside of town, just to go to Walmart. And they don't shop anywhere else. Stores are closing left and right here, small mom and pop places, our outlet stores. None of these places can compete with Walmart because most of the goods it gets are sold really cheap at wholesale from China.

Now, gas is pretty expensive, I barely use my car because it costs too much, taxi services are expensive now, I can't really avoid Walmart if I want to survive. And no food stores will come in because they don't want to compete with Walmart. There IS no choice here. The same goes with Cable, it's either Comcast or you better be willing to hook up a dish. There is no choice, there is no consumer protection. There is no market to self regulate itself.
You have to ask yourself which one of the candidates might help fix that problem. I very much like the idea that Romney had for lowering the tax rates on small businesses. It gives them the power to be more competitive against the Walmarts of the world, with their much more lenient corporate tax code and their teams of accountants and lawyers.

Either we give the population the tools to fix the economy themselves, or we continue to rely on government largesse to bail us out. I have seen the way government handles money. I have seen their corruption and waste first hand. I have also seen the resilience and fortitude of the U.S. populace rebuilding their livelihood after tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, and other personal calamities. We are the most charitable country in the world. I know who I put my trust in when times are tough; politicians don't even enter the equation.
Post edited October 07, 2012 by Krypsyn
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TwilightBard: Ok, Here's a problem. You say I can avoid companies. I disagree. I have no supermarket in my town. When Walmart came in, stores were moved and our main mall was closed down, including our food store. You can't avoid Walmart here if you don't want to drive 10 miles out of the way. And most people do. The big deal is that so many people come from outside of town, just to go to Walmart. And they don't shop anywhere else. Stores are closing left and right here, small mom and pop places, our outlet stores. None of these places can compete with Walmart because most of the goods it gets are sold really cheap at wholesale from China.

Now, gas is pretty expensive, I barely use my car because it costs too much, taxi services are expensive now, I can't really avoid Walmart if I want to survive. And no food stores will come in because they don't want to compete with Walmart. There IS no choice here. The same goes with Cable, it's either Comcast or you better be willing to hook up a dish. There is no choice, there is no consumer protection. There is no market to self regulate itself.
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tangledblue11: I love the points you made and these are great questions. I'd like to start with your second scenario since that's easiest to address (and I can relate, I was in the same situation). You mentioned the lack of choice for cable: you either have Comcast or satellite. You actually have a third choice - neither. If both of those options are so terrible that you feel you are being treated unfairly is it worth having cable? I do not have cable and I've been through Cox and Directv. I finally decided it wasn't worth it. The reality of commerce is that you can't always get exactly what you want at all times. Commerce can simply provide you with the "best" services available at a given place/time (and you have to decide whether or not they're good enough for you to buy).

Your first point is more tricky. Obviously in 2012 you have to buy basic goods from somewhere. I usually discuss a lack of competition from a utilities standpoint (government monopolies in most cases). It is a rare case indeed when no competition exists in a marketplace. First, I will say this which should make you feel a little bit better. Your current dilema will not last long. Walmart will not be the only game in town; new businesses will rise that are better situated to compete with Walmart.

So - to answer your scenario directly - do you have any farmer's markets or small-time grocers available from which you can buy your food? If so, you could always purchase non-food items online from Amazon or Walgreens or wherever else and minimize your need to purchase locally. I don't see Wal-Mart as a consumer threat that would necessitate such an arrangement but I'm sure you have your reasons. I will not buy from Best Buy, for example, so anytime I need a cord or whatever I just purchase it online and have it shipped.
I...actually have to disagree with you on the point where Walmart's stranglehold won't last long. The new town administration made attempts to get other stores in. The responce they got, was that supermarkets wanted a lot more space then we're able to give them. We're hamstrung quite a bit in our ability to develop the area we have (State regulitory agency). Walmart's strangehold is currently on it's 5th year and there's no signs of it stopping anytime soon, any store would take at least a year to be built (The location of our old mall's food store got taken up by a Furniture store, yay for 3 in a half mile radius!).

And while I make an effort to avoid Walmart like the plague, there aren't enough stores in town where you can just easily avoid it, and you have to pay a premium to do so. We have a really small farmer's market for fresh veggies, but no meat, not a big grain selection (in fact it really doesn't qualify as a selection), and the usual convenience stores and delis for milk.

The point about Comcast, was the standard lack of choice you see in a lot of places. They treat me about as bad as any other place, but it's one of those, everyone understands what you mean when you talk about it. My Walmart situation is a bit out there and hard to really understand. I do understand the utilities specifics on how and why there are so few things, but again, it's universal, it's easy to see and understand.

To me it's a fact that there are a lot of companies that are very hard to avoid, they're just too big, and they're in a position that they can easily just laugh off the idea of a self-regulating market.

I tend to take issues like this very seriously, because anyone can budget, this is a lot bigger than my family's budget, but neither to me have the balls to actually put that in the forefront. I'd offer my suggestions, but people tend to get VERY angry VERY quickly when I so much as mutter the phrase 'Defense Budget Cuts', but that's a very hot topic thing, and it tends to be a place of attack on partisan grounds.
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Krypsyn: Before we do anything, however, we really do need to get our fiscal house in order. Everyone has their pet programs, and there are few that will be totally happy with any cuts, but most people have to agree that there is a lot of fat in Washington available to be cut. The trouble is that most politicians won't seriously bring up the subject, or try for any sort of compromise, because they are too afraid of losing the next election.
Agreed, the elephant in the room is probably defense spending, but neither party will address this, it's political suicide, which sucks. I'd rather build a bridge than a bomber, at best a bomber sits there, at worst... you know.

There's other programs too, I'm just irritated that no one wants to cut anything but social services when people are hurting. If we provide a reasonable safety net I'm happy to cut services, but we seem unwilling to do so (too much fear of the whole "welfare queen" thing I guess). Not everyone in need can luck out from a charity when something bad happens.

Probably the health care reform cluster-fuck, which had one small benefit of getting some uninsured folks covered, is an example of what we have to look forward to going forward.
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Krypsyn: I tend to agree with this. It seems like 1/3 of the population has their own news outlets and they argue with the other 1/3 (who also have their own news outlets). They have become so partisan, even their definitions for terms are different from the opposing side; it is hard to reach consensus when people can't even agree on the basics. Politicians don't try to change this, they don't try to educate anymore (if they ever really did), and they just seem to try to rile up their bases using that side's rhetoric and code phrases. Meanwhile, the middle 1/3 of the voting public is caught in the middle wondering WTF all the hub-bub is about, and they usually end up voting for the guy that seems the least obnoxious.
Pretty much, I think the problem is we've made the issues way too hot button, it's way too hard to actually make headway on serious topics. Like I mentioned, consumer protection, it's way way too hot button to really talk about, and just me mentioning it seemed to get a bit of a rile.

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Krypsyn: You have to ask yourself which one of the candidates might help fix that problem. I very much like the idea that Romney had for lowering the tax rates on small businesses. It gives them the power to be more competitive against the Walmarts of the world, with their much more lenient corporate tax code and their teams of accountants and lawyers.

Either we give the population the tools to fix the economy themselves, or we continue to rely on government largesse to bail us out. I have seen the way government handles money. I have seen their corruption and waste first hand. I have also seen the resilience and fortitude of the U.S. populace rebuilding their livelihood after tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, and other personal calamities. We are the most charitable country in the world. I know who I put my trust in when times are tough; politicians don't even enter the equation.
The problem I see is, when I think of the populace, I think of genuinely good people. I see good people when it comes to small businesses. But at a certain point, the business takes a mind of it's own, when investors come along, when big profits come in.

It becomes a case of, the corrupt cop (Government) vs. the Bully Son of the Richest Guy in Town (Big Business). Who do you trust, and who can you control? I don't trust either one, I lean towards the government over Big Business because we have a leash on him...somewhere, we can never find the damn thing.

And, I'm hesitant to offer the idea that we as a country are just too big, and some common sense things aren't done. I think our government size isn't as much of a problem as it's effectiveness. We constantly strip things down, strip regulatory organizations of their power, and then parade them around like they don't do anything and can't.

Big Business has become lots of eyes on short term profits instead of long term positions. There's so many that sometimes it's hard to keep track. There's nothing there to appeal too, no heart, they're not people (Sorry, that's something that REALLY rubs me the wrong way). And at the head are people who want to get rich by any means, outsourcing jobs to where the labor is cheaper, that's not a protest to taxes, it's a means to push profits up quickly so that they can run off with lots of money and bonuses, leave the next guy to deal with the fallout when something bad happens.

I mean, I may see things a bit oddly, but that's just what I'm seeing by looking out there.