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General discussion (archive)Fingerbones: a psychological horror game(42 posts)(42 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 23, 2014
Right, I meant to get back to you about this.

Overall, and taken in context as a first effort, I thought that it was decent. Here's my list of gripes and ungripes, presented purely in the spirit of constructive criticism.

Ungripes (I.e. stuff I thought was well-done)
-The opening shot of the light coming through the windows was very nicely done, and put me right into the mood of the game.
-The horror in the game was fairly self-restrained, which I appreciate. In fact, I personally would have taken out the "ghost cries" (unless the presence of a ghost had somehow featured in the plot) and replaced them with creepy ambient noise.

Gripes:
Gameplay:
1. As others have noted, the movement felt very "sticky", particularly when rounding the corners near the stairs or when clambering over boxes.
2. Having to backtrack to the console for every single password felt like pointless padding. Oddly enough, I think this would have been fine if the keypads had been on the doors themselves and you just had to backtrack to locked doors you'd previously passed by. The key issue is whether it feels like I am heading /towards/ my goal or /away/ from it - if I have the key and am heading to the locked door, even if that's backtracking, it'is progress /towards/ my goal. But having to head /away/ from the door to enter a password elsewhere so that I can then head /back/ to the door feels like an unnecessary side-trip.
3. The whole "Guess what name I picked for a password" method of progression wasn't very interesting. The fact that he chose X or Y name didn't tell us very much about him as a character, just that he was picking simple words. Solving that kind of "puzzle" should either present an intellectual challenge to the player, or tell us something significant about the character, or ideally both. In fact, for one of the passwords (the hint where part of the word was missing), he mentioned that it was "something he could easily remember" or "something he was very familiar with" or something like that, and I initially thought that the missing letters were part of the word "monotony", which he had referenced in a different letter. Using that as a password would have been better, because it would both have told us something about the character's state of mind, and also required the player to /think/ about the character's state of mind.

Presentation and Writing:
4. The noise from the generator near the beginning was kind of annoying, and disrupted the eerie serenity that the room had built up until that point.
5. The whole "finding scattered notes" trope as a method of story delivery is, in my opinion, not great for immersion. Why tear out these pages and scatter them all over the place in such a haphazard fashion, while at the same time conveniently laying them out so that they will be encountered in a roughly chronological sequence? It felt a bit forced - an acknowledgement that the player is in a "game" rather than just exploring an organic environment.
6. This is partly my problem, because I've just read/watched/played waaaaaay too much horror, but I was able to guess the entire storyline from the title and the first minute or so of gameplay. This isn't necessarily a drawback - horror is often predictable, but its effectiveness is in the presentation. So unless you had intended the ending to be a surprise, I would just ignore this point.
Posted March 23, 2014
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jefequeso:
Nevermind :]
Post edited March 24, 2014 by cmdr_flashheart
Posted March 23, 2014
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Azilut: Right, I meant to get back to you about this.

Overall, and taken in context as a first effort, I thought that it was decent. Here's my list of gripes and ungripes, presented purely in the spirit of constructive criticism.

Ungripes (I.e. stuff I thought was well-done)
-The opening shot of the light coming through the windows was very nicely done, and put me right into the mood of the game.
-The horror in the game was fairly self-restrained, which I appreciate. In fact, I personally would have taken out the "ghost cries" (unless the presence of a ghost had somehow featured in the plot) and replaced them with creepy ambient noise.

Gripes:
Gameplay:
1. As others have noted, the movement felt very "sticky", particularly when rounding the corners near the stairs or when clambering over boxes.
2. Having to backtrack to the console for every single password felt like pointless padding. Oddly enough, I think this would have been fine if the keypads had been on the doors themselves and you just had to backtrack to locked doors you'd previously passed by. The key issue is whether it feels like I am heading /towards/ my goal or /away/ from it - if I have the key and am heading to the locked door, even if that's backtracking, it'is progress /towards/ my goal. But having to head /away/ from the door to enter a password elsewhere so that I can then head /back/ to the door feels like an unnecessary side-trip.
3. The whole "Guess what name I picked for a password" method of progression wasn't very interesting. The fact that he chose X or Y name didn't tell us very much about him as a character, just that he was picking simple words. Solving that kind of "puzzle" should either present an intellectual challenge to the player, or tell us something significant about the character, or ideally both. In fact, for one of the passwords (the hint where part of the word was missing), he mentioned that it was "something he could easily remember" or "something he was very familiar with" or something like that, and I initially thought that the missing letters were part of the word "monotony", which he had referenced in a different letter. Using that as a password would have been better, because it would both have told us something about the character's state of mind, and also required the player to /think/ about the character's state of mind.

Presentation and Writing:
4. The noise from the generator near the beginning was kind of annoying, and disrupted the eerie serenity that the room had built up until that point.
5. The whole "finding scattered notes" trope as a method of story delivery is, in my opinion, not great for immersion. Why tear out these pages and scatter them all over the place in such a haphazard fashion, while at the same time conveniently laying them out so that they will be encountered in a roughly chronological sequence? It felt a bit forced - an acknowledgement that the player is in a "game" rather than just exploring an organic environment.
6. This is partly my problem, because I've just read/watched/played waaaaaay too much horror, but I was able to guess the entire storyline from the title and the first minute or so of gameplay. This isn't necessarily a drawback - horror is often predictable, but its effectiveness is in the presentation. So unless you had intended the ending to be a surprise, I would just ignore this point.
1. Yeah, that has to do with the way Unity's default character controller deals with collision with objects that are within a certain "step height." I'm still working on figuring out how to smooth it out. Next game will simply be designed around not having to have smaller objects that you can step up onto :P.

2. I will keep this in mind.

3. The puzzles do reveal things about his character, just not in a simple "a = b" way. "Katie" being the first password, combined with the note about her visiting, gives a tiny little glimpse into what their relationship was like. He wanted to be left alone, and would do "whatever makes her happy" to keep her from bothering him. Furthermore, you can take it further by asking why Katie would want him to use her name as a password to begin with. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that her mother's name is also a password? "Lynn" being the next password shows, obviously, that he still hangs on to some remnants of their marriage, even if it's something as silly as a password. "nny-" doesn't really reveal anything about him, save that it fits with his obsessively practical nature to use the same password, just backwards (admittedly, his reasons for writing it down fall decidedly under "videogame logic"). "Freedom" is probably the most overt and simplistic. It's just driving home the point that to him, torturing his daughter to death in the cellar is the definition of "freedom."

That was the plan, at least. In practice, from the LPs I've watched and the feedback I've gotten, it didn't seem to work out the way I'd hoped. It's something I'll have to work on in future games.

4. Ok

5. The problem is that "log-based storytelling," as I like to call it, is damn good at what it does. It's a really easy, simple way to tell a story, and it doesn't require fancy animation, modeling, or even voice acting. Just good writing. Plus, it's a great way to tie exploration and storytelling together. And when you have to worry about trying to perfect every other little detail--since gamers (including myself) will abandon the work of unknown indie devs at the drop of a hat--it's nice to have a tried-and-true method of storytelling to fall back on. That said, I agree with you 100%. Log-based storytelling is extremely overused and inherently nonsensical, and I'm trying to move away from it in my next game (at least a little :P)

6. Yeah, some people said they found the storyline predictable, others said the ending took them by surprise. My original idea was to subtly "trick" the player into expecting a traditional "ghosty monstery" plot, then drop the real ending on them. I abandoned this because I thought it would just irritate people. But I might have gone too far in the opposite direction. Of course, part of the problem is that the plot of Fingerbones is simple and not terribly original, so making the ending a surprise would have required red herrings on my part, and couldn't have been done just by leaving out information (I already left out a crap ton of information and people were still guessing the ending). It's a little sad, in a way, because I did have a bunch of subtle twists and turns planned, but I ended up going down the "safer" path.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback.
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jefequeso: As far as the backtracking goes... could someone explain this a little more to me? Because i actually intentionally added in the backtracking, thinking that it would make the game feel more "explorey," and I'm still not sure I see what the problem is, since I LIKE backtracking in many games. However, this complaint has come up several times. So what exactly is it about backtracking that's so annoying?
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Sachys: its backtracking between a set of stairs, a long empty room nd the door / load time that divides them thts the problem - were its somehow scenic, or action filled (a la Shadow of Chernobyl) it might have worked, but in this case its a plain chore.

Edit: thats as far as I got before it made me give up btw
Ok, I guess I can see that. But it's such a tiny environment, I have a hard time understanding how that would make someone give up.
Post edited March 23, 2014 by jefequeso
Posted March 24, 2014
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jefequeso: 5. The problem is that "log-based storytelling," as I like to call it, is damn good at what it does. It's a really easy, simple way to tell a story, and it doesn't require fancy animation, modeling, or even voice acting. Just good writing. Plus, it's a great way to tie exploration and storytelling together. And when you have to worry about trying to perfect every other little detail--since gamers (including myself) will abandon the work of unknown indie devs at the drop of a hat--it's nice to have a tried-and-true method of storytelling to fall back on. That said, I agree with you 100%. Log-based storytelling is extremely overused and inherently nonsensical, and I'm trying to move away from it in my next game (at least a little :P)
Don't get me wrong - "testamentary horror" (my preferred term) has a long and distinguished history, and it isn't a problem per se. My objection was not to the method of storytellling, but to the way it was presented in the environment - i.e. a seemingly haphazard scattering of pages should not conveniently be lying around in chronological order. There needs to be a logic to the placement of the logs in the environment as well as to the contents of the logs themselves. Testamentary horror always introduces problems like this - why is the person writing this down? Why are they being so cryptic? How did their testament end up in this particular place to be found in this particular way? These problems are not insurmountable, and in fact it's often easy to overlook them when experiencing the story for the first time - but it's the sort of thing that can niggle at you later when you're thinking back on things. (One of my pet peeves being a testament that ends in a way where it's literally impossible for the character to be telling you this story, or for the testament ever to be found.)

Anyway, these problems are endemic to the horror genre and have plagued many of its masters, so please don't feel like I'm singling you out here. Barry Longyear, author of one of the best "How to write" books I've come across,* talks a lot about "hiding the seams" in your writing. The idea is that yes, there are always going to be certain mechanical processes going on underneath your writing, and those are there for a very good reason - but like any good artist, your job is to hide those mechanics as well as possible so that they don't spoil the magic.

For future projects, one suggestion might be to try weaving together your log entries with more environmental storytelling - e.g. even the location or condition of a log, if done right, can go from being a plot contrivance to actually revealing more of the plot (so instead of wondering "Why is this here?", I'm thinking "Oooh, and it ended up here... creepy!) One of my favourite examples of this kind of thing comes from the game Riven. At one point you find what appears to be a school, in which may be found a toy that (with a little experimentation) turns out to be for teaching children how to count in Rivenese numerals, something you need to figure out yourself. It was only a little later on that it occurred to me that the toy teaches children to count using a wooden figure being lowered as a sacrifice to a sea-monster, via a structure that looks an awful lot like the one over the lake just outside... and what the fact that this would be turned into a toy for children tells me about that society. Brrrrrr.

*The Science Fiction Writer's Workshop, Vol. 1, if you're curious.
Post edited March 24, 2014 by Azilut
Posted March 24, 2014
This thread popping back onto the front page reminded me that I wanted to play this game and give you some feedback. Will do so now. I didn't read any posts in this thread before playing the game, because I believe that feedback is probably more valuable for you if the player isn't primed by other people's reactions already. Will do so after finishing this post.

Sorry for the terse language btw. I'm currently recovering from fever, and elegance of expression is something my mind isn't yet capable of. If you want me to elaborate on anything, just ask.

1. Technicalities:
+ Resolution configurable
+ Keyboard controls remappable. Always annoys me when devs think that everyone must be using WASD.
+ Volume and mouse sensitivity adjustable in-game, very nice.
- some weird problems with movement: entering the stairs slightly from the side apparently caused me to not stand properly upon the steps, I had to crawl upwards slowly. In the last room, you can move slightly onto the "bed", and when you then look up, you see a blue ceiling. The note which starts with "The tool room" was unclickable even though I had it in plain sight, I had to move towards the back wall and change my view angle to make the click actually register. These things are not important for an experimental mini-game, but such issues need to be ironed out for a "real" project.
- movement generally a bit slow, but not a problem in a game that has no "action" elements and takes place in a very small area
- no "jump" movement. This made me a bit wary of exploring spaces like the room behind the boxes. I was afraid that I might get stuck somewhere, without the usual emergency measure (jump wildly until you're free) being available, in a game without a save function. I never actually _did_ get stuck though, so perhaps that was just my own fault for being too anxious in that regard.
- no clear warning that the "Exit" door throws you out of the game
- last screen fades out too quickly to read all the text, had to finish the game three times to read all the lines

2. Graphics:
+ good atmospheric lighting in the first room
- very crude and pixelated wall/wood textures
+ some models work very well despite being very low-poly, e.g. the keyboard came out pretty good
- some models are so crude that it's hard to recognize them. I didn't recognize the flashlight until the light appeared. The ceiling light in the second room (the one with the stairs) looked like skylight to me, but it can't be one considering the room's height and the color of the light in the first room, can it?
+ good use of clutter (cups, tools, books, etc.)

3. Sound:
+ good audio atmosphere in general
- there were sounds that didn't seem to make sense, like a heavy car driving by (?) when you're in the room with the stairs
+ girl's sound files well chosen
+/- some sounds that were only taking place in the character's memory sounded a bit too direct and realistic. I would have given them a bit of reverberation and a longer fade-in/fade-out period, perhaps, to make them sound more eerie.

4. Story:
+ audacious choice of subject matter
+ inclusion of philosophical ideas tries to give the topic psychological/philosophical substance instead of just using it for shock value. Nicely done.
- setting not that original considering that games like "Anna", "Home", and especially "Serena" exist already; not much of a problem though for a project like this one. These games show quite well that interesting stories _can_ be told despite severe restrictions in technology and manpower, so standing in their footsteps is not a shame for someone in a similar situation.
+ writing generally decent, with some brilliant ideas. The idea of turning the crayons into candle, after they just had been used in an attempt to make the character happy, was a very powerful way of depicting his emotional desolation.
- texts are very short. they still manage to build up background knowledge and atmosphere, but they just barely suffice for doing so. More would have been better.
- plot is very linear and predictable. The radicalness of the philosophical ideas, and the mention of "blood" in the second room already, pretty much only leave open which of two atrocities have been committed. Opening the safe then makes clear that there was mutilation involved. I did, however, expect to find at least someone capable of producing the sounds I was hearing.

In general, I think the game would have benefited from a more fleshed-out story. For example, if the notes had depicted the father as a torn character, struggling to find the "right" way, embracing and rejecting several "solutions", then the end would have been less predictable, and would have felt more tragic (since the the player would be more aware that a less tragic outcome might have been an option). Or, alternatively, if the notes had started on a more positive note, and then gradually turned darker ("Serena" pulls this off very well), the end might have had more emotional impact as well. When I think about it, "Fingerbones" did have me interested on an academic / philosophical / psychological level, but it didn't grip me emotionally as much as it could have, and I think these two suggestions (conflicting info or starting on a more positive note) could have changed that.

6. Puzzles / Progression:
+ noticeable feeling of progress despite the shortness of the game
- progression completely linear ...
+ ... but shortcuts exist if you want to (or have to) replay the game, or when a player is clever (and e.g. guesses the first password immediately after seeing it for the first time)
- some unnecessarily "gamey" techniques, like notes suddenly materializing on formerly empty spaces. It makes suspension of disbelief harder, and didn't seem to be necessary from a gameplay perspective.
- many notes are clearly written just to give the player a clue, and there is little to no in-game reason why they would be there. That's true for many great games though. I just think that it could be done better.
+ some well-working ways of hiding items from the player and then making them available/usable: darkness/light, power from the generator, etc.
o The hint starting with "The tool room is her name ..." had me stumped for a good 10 minutes. I understood this as "so there is a female person who is called 'The tool room' ", which seemed extremely odd, but that was the literally correct information from the note. I wouldn't have had this problem if the note had read "The tool room's is her name", or "The tool room has her name", is there a particular reason why you didn't use one of those?

...

That's my first impressions so far. In general, I think "Fingerbones" is decent as a first experimental foray into a new genre, but would recommend more story detailing and external testing for further projects. I do think that games with psychological storytelling suit your talents better than shooters. "Fingerbones" definitely made me curious about your next projects.

As said above - if you want me to elaborate on anything I said, just ask.
Post edited March 24, 2014 by Psyringe
Posted March 24, 2014
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jefequeso: As far as the backtracking goes... could someone explain this a little more to me? Because i actually intentionally added in the backtracking, thinking that it would make the game feel more "explorey," and I'm still not sure I see what the problem is, since I LIKE backtracking in many games. However, this complaint has come up several times. So what exactly is it about backtracking that's so annoying?
Sorry can not stop laughing. Keep picturing doofenshmirtz talking
Posted March 24, 2014
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jefequeso: 5. The problem is that "log-based storytelling," as I like to call it, is damn good at what it does. It's a really easy, simple way to tell a story, and it doesn't require fancy animation, modeling, or even voice acting. Just good writing. Plus, it's a great way to tie exploration and storytelling together. And when you have to worry about trying to perfect every other little detail--since gamers (including myself) will abandon the work of unknown indie devs at the drop of a hat--it's nice to have a tried-and-true method of storytelling to fall back on. That said, I agree with you 100%. Log-based storytelling is extremely overused and inherently nonsensical, and I'm trying to move away from it in my next game (at least a little :P)
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Azilut: Don't get me wrong - "testamentary horror" (my preferred term) has a long and distinguished history, and it isn't a problem per se. My objection was not to the method of storytellling, but to the way it was presented in the environment - i.e. a seemingly haphazard scattering of pages should not conveniently be lying around in chronological order. There needs to be a logic to the placement of the logs in the environment as well as to the contents of the logs themselves. Testamentary horror always introduces problems like this - why is the person writing this down? Why are they being so cryptic? How did their testament end up in this particular place to be found in this particular way? These problems are not insurmountable, and in fact it's often easy to overlook them when experiencing the story for the first time - but it's the sort of thing that can niggle at you later when you're thinking back on things. (One of my pet peeves being a testament that ends in a way where it's literally impossible for the character to be telling you this story, or for the testament ever to be found.)

Anyway, these problems are endemic to the horror genre and have plagued many of its masters, so please don't feel like I'm singling you out here. Barry Longyear, author of one of the best "How to write" books I've come across,* talks a lot about "hiding the seams" in your writing. The idea is that yes, there are always going to be certain mechanical processes going on underneath your writing, and those are there for a very good reason - but like any good artist, your job is to hide those mechanics as well as possible so that they don't spoil the magic.

For future projects, one suggestion might be to try weaving together your log entries with more environmental storytelling - e.g. even the location or condition of a log, if done right, can go from being a plot contrivance to actually revealing more of the plot (so instead of wondering "Why is this here?", I'm thinking "Oooh, and it ended up here... creepy!) One of my favourite examples of this kind of thing comes from the game Riven. At one point you find what appears to be a school, in which may be found a toy that (with a little experimentation) turns out to be for teaching children how to count in Rivenese numerals, something you need to figure out yourself. It was only a little later on that it occurred to me that the toy teaches children to count using a wooden figure being lowered as a sacrifice to a sea-monster, via a structure that looks an awful lot like the one over the lake just outside... and what the fact that this would be turned into a toy for children tells me about that society. Brrrrrr.

*The Science Fiction Writer's Workshop, Vol. 1, if you're curious.
Ok, I will keep that in mind. Thanks!
Posted March 24, 2014
avatar
Psyringe: This thread popping back onto the front page reminded me that I wanted to play this game and give you some feedback. Will do so now. I didn't read any posts in this thread before playing the game, because I believe that feedback is probably more valuable for you if the player isn't primed by other people's reactions already. Will do so after finishing this post.

Sorry for the terse language btw. I'm currently recovering from fever, and elegance of expression is something my mind isn't yet capable of. If you want me to elaborate on anything, just ask.

1. Technicalities:
+ Resolution configurable
+ Keyboard controls remappable. Always annoys me when devs think that everyone must be using WASD.
+ Volume and mouse sensitivity adjustable in-game, very nice.
- some weird problems with movement: entering the stairs slightly from the side apparently caused me to not stand properly upon the steps, I had to crawl upwards slowly. In the last room, you can move slightly onto the "bed", and when you then look up, you see a blue ceiling. The note which starts with "The tool room" was unclickable even though I had it in plain sight, I had to move towards the back wall and change my view angle to make the click actually register. These things are not important for an experimental mini-game, but such issues need to be ironed out for a "real" project.
- movement generally a bit slow, but not a problem in a game that has no "action" elements and takes place in a very small area
- no "jump" movement. This made me a bit wary of exploring spaces like the room behind the boxes. I was afraid that I might get stuck somewhere, without the usual emergency measure (jump wildly until you're free) being available, in a game without a save function. I never actually _did_ get stuck though, so perhaps that was just my own fault for being too anxious in that regard.
- no clear warning that the "Exit" door throws you out of the game
- last screen fades out too quickly to read all the text, had to finish the game three times to read all the lines

2. Graphics:
+ good atmospheric lighting in the first room
- very crude and pixelated wall/wood textures
+ some models work very well despite being very low-poly, e.g. the keyboard came out pretty good
- some models are so crude that it's hard to recognize them. I didn't recognize the flashlight until the light appeared. The ceiling light in the second room (the one with the stairs) looked like skylight to me, but it can't be one considering the room's height and the color of the light in the first room, can it?
+ good use of clutter (cups, tools, books, etc.)

3. Sound:
+ good audio atmosphere in general
- there were sounds that didn't seem to make sense, like a heavy car driving by (?) when you're in the room with the stairs
+ girl's sound files well chosen
+/- some sounds that were only taking place in the character's memory sounded a bit too direct and realistic. I would have given them a bit of reverberation and a longer fade-in/fade-out period, perhaps, to make them sound more eerie.

4. Story:
+ audacious choice of subject matter
+ inclusion of philosophical ideas tries to give the topic psychological/philosophical substance instead of just using it for shock value. Nicely done.
- setting not that original considering that games like "Anna", "Home", and especially "Serena" exist already; not much of a problem though for a project like this one. These games show quite well that interesting stories _can_ be told despite severe restrictions in technology and manpower, so standing in their footsteps is not a shame for someone in a similar situation.
+ writing generally decent, with some brilliant ideas. The idea of turning the crayons into candle, after they just had been used in an attempt to make the character happy, was a very powerful way of depicting his emotional desolation.
- texts are very short. they still manage to build up background knowledge and atmosphere, but they just barely suffice for doing so. More would have been better.
- plot is very linear and predictable. The radicalness of the philosophical ideas, and the mention of "blood" in the second room already, pretty much only leave open which of two atrocities have been committed. Opening the safe then makes clear that there was mutilation involved. I did, however, expect to find at least someone capable of producing the sounds I was hearing.

In general, I think the game would have benefited from a more fleshed-out story. For example, if the notes had depicted the father as a torn character, struggling to find the "right" way, embracing and rejecting several "solutions", then the end would have been less predictable, and would have felt more tragic (since the the player would be more aware that a less tragic outcome might have been an option). Or, alternatively, if the notes had started on a more positive note, and then gradually turned darker ("Serena" pulls this off very well), the end might have had more emotional impact as well. When I think about it, "Fingerbones" did have me interested on an academic / philosophical / psychological level, but it didn't grip me emotionally as much as it could have, and I think these two suggestions (conflicting info or starting on a more positive note) could have changed that.

6. Puzzles / Progression:
+ noticeable feeling of progress despite the shortness of the game
- progression completely linear ...
+ ... but shortcuts exist if you want to (or have to) replay the game, or when a player is clever (and e.g. guesses the first password immediately after seeing it for the first time)
- some unnecessarily "gamey" techniques, like notes suddenly materializing on formerly empty spaces. It makes suspension of disbelief harder, and didn't seem to be necessary from a gameplay perspective.
- many notes are clearly written just to give the player a clue, and there is little to no in-game reason why they would be there. That's true for many great games though. I just think that it could be done better.
+ some well-working ways of hiding items from the player and then making them available/usable: darkness/light, power from the generator, etc.
o The hint starting with "The tool room is her name ..." had me stumped for a good 10 minutes. I understood this as "so there is a female person who is called 'The tool room' ", which seemed extremely odd, but that was the literally correct information from the note. I wouldn't have had this problem if the note had read "The tool room's is her name", or "The tool room has her name", is there a particular reason why you didn't use one of those?

...

That's my first impressions so far. In general, I think "Fingerbones" is decent as a first experimental foray into a new genre, but would recommend more story detailing and external testing for further projects. I do think that games with psychological storytelling suit your talents better than shooters. "Fingerbones" definitely made me curious about your next projects.

As said above - if you want me to elaborate on anything I said, just ask.
Lots of good feedback. Thanks!

Some of these problems are things I'm hopefully fixing in my next game.

Working on improving model and texture quality. Blender is a pain to learn. Next game will use stock textures.

Movement should be improved as well. Going to avoid having objects you climb over.

Yeah, not a very original setting. But it's a setting I really llike :P. Next game is going to have a more Myst-esque setting.

Next game is going to have a much deeper, more developed story. And, as a bonus, told in a way that doesn't involve random notes!

Notes actually don't materialize randomly.

I think I was a little too focused on trying to communicate the philosophical ideas, and thus didn't leave myself enough room to flesh out the story beyond them.


Sounds like for my next project, I should concentrate on keeping the story as believable as possible, and avoiding strange narrative tropes. I'm thinking of putting less emphasis on the puzzles, since I think Fingerbones suffered a little from me trying to make the puzzles appropriately challenging.





The problem I'm having with my next game is figuring out what sort of "challenge" and gameplay elements will work with the story rather than just being there along side it, or working against it. I suppose being extra sure to integrate puzzles with the story as much as possible.
Post edited March 24, 2014 by jefequeso
Posted March 25, 2014
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jefequeso: Yeah, not a very original setting. But it's a setting I really llike :P.
And as I said, it's also a setting that is known to enable good end results even with very limited resources. Therefore, excellent choice for an experimental first attempt in this genre.

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jefequeso: Next game is going to have a much deeper, more developed story.
Yay! :)

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jefequeso: Notes actually don't materialize randomly.
Not randomly, but I thought there was a note on a shelf that only appeared after clicking on another note elsewhere. Might have gotten that wrong though, perhaps I mixed up shelves.

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jefequeso: I think I was a little too focused on trying to communicate the philosophical ideas, and thus didn't leave myself enough room to flesh out the story beyond them.

Sounds like for my next project, I should concentrate on keeping the story as believable as possible, and avoiding strange narrative tropes.
Just so there's no misunderstanding in this regard: I think the story in Fingerbones is pretty believable already. The depression and the philosophical ruminations _do_ form a logical path to the revelation at the end of the game. The problem is that each detail which you add to make the story more believable, is also automatically a clue for the way the final revelation, to the point where it isn't much of a revelation any more. There are, however, several ways to prevent this:

a) Providing less information. Not a good solution imho since it will automatically make the story less believable unless it's so banal and stereotypical that it comes across as believable anyway (but then it might not be worth telling)

b) Guiding the player's thoughts into the wrong direction. Can be done, but is always a bit problematic. There's a thin line between "Wow, I didn't see that coming at all" and "What a crap ending, nothing in the game hinted at that ridiculous twist at the end". Also, there's a risk to run into the effect of "I know that the end must be X, because of all reasonable explanations, this is the only one that never gets explored - they are reserving it for the 'twist' at the end". (There's probably a proper name for that trope, but I'm not hip enough to know it, I just know the mechanics. ;) )

c) Providing more "fluff" data so that the plot-relevant clues are harder to recognize. This is a good solution imho since it will also flesh out the setting, make it more believable, and provide more hooks for the player to emotionally attach to the characters.

d) Providing red herrings / alternative explanations / conflicting information. That's my personal favorite because it's fair to the player (i.e., not consciously misguiding him, but making the plot less obvious by exploring alternatives), it's impossible for the player to be _sure_ about the end if several equally plausible theories do exist, and it also adds more content and background to the game. As an additional bonus, it may even happen that during development one of the intended "distracting theories" may turn out to be more interesting and productive than the main plot you had in mind - and if you did the job of making them equally plausible and providing clues for both, then you can switch them with little effort. ;)

(Side note: In "Fingerbones", you kind of _have_ two different sets of clues in the game, one pointing towards cannibalism and one pointing towards rape. But these don't really work as alternatives because a) they don't necessarily exclude each other and b) more importantly, the player's emotional reaction to them is probably very similar.)


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jefequeso: The problem I'm having with my next game is figuring out what sort of "challenge" and gameplay elements will work with the story rather than just being there along side it, or working against it. I suppose being extra sure to integrate puzzles with the story as much as possible.
Yep that's always the problem with story-driven games; I think we talked about that before. ;) Stories and puzzles can enhance each other, but they can also get in each others' way. Don't be shy to ask other people for ideas, and make sure to have external playtesters (adding ones who are new to the game every now and then).

...

Btw, getting back to "Fingerbones" itself, I have a question as a player rather than a "critic" or "tester":

At some point, the main character seems to resort to selfish-gene theory to justify the past/forthcoming actions. However, the actions that he _does_ undertake are contradictory to that, since he apparently removes the only remaining opportunity of reproduction. So, what has happened here? Is his thinking simply too deranged to spot the contradiction (possible, but not a very satisfying explanation)? Did he (or the author of the game) misunderstand that part of selfish-gene theory? Was there no option of ever producing enough food, so reproduction was not a viable option anyway, and personal survival became more important? Or (what I personally deem the best match to the character and his mindset) did all these philosophies, including selfish-gene theory which demanded reproduction, at the end just become part of the burden from which he wanted to be free?

(That's, btw, the kind of discussion that the game might trigger if we wouldn't focus so much on reviewing it ... perhaps we shouldn't. ;) )
Posted March 25, 2014
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Psyringe: At some point, the main character seems to resort to selfish-gene theory to justify the past/forthcoming actions. However, the actions that he _does_ undertake are contradictory to that, since he apparently removes the only remaining opportunity of reproduction. So, what has happened here? Is his thinking simply too deranged to spot the contradiction (possible, but not a very satisfying explanation)? Did he (or the author of the game) misunderstand that part of selfish-gene theory? Was there no option of ever producing enough food, so reproduction was not a viable option anyway, and personal survival became more important? Or (what I personally deem the best match to the character and his mindset) did all these philosophies, including selfish-gene theory which demanded reproduction, at the end just become part of the burden from which he wanted to be free?

(That's, btw, the kind of discussion that the game might trigger if we wouldn't focus so much on reviewing it ... perhaps we shouldn't. ;) )
Ahh, interesting. You're the first person that's actually showed any interest in the philosophical portion of the game :)

First, let me clear up exactly what he did to Katie, since it's left a little ambiguous. As I've mentioned other places, the original ending text was much more gruesome and overt, but I felt that it was also too ham-handed, and didn't leave enough up to the player's imagination. However, in the process of making it more subtle, I failed to communicate an important point: Katie was still alive when he cut her fingers off. She died over a period of weeks from blood loss and lack of food. The notes concerning sexual desires are intended to thus imply a latent sadism (as well as feelings of anger toward his ex wife, which he projects onto Katie) that was allowed to be unleashed after the fall of society. In other words, he didn't murder her because his philosophy told him to. He murdered her because his philosophy allowed for him to justify his desires--regardless of how obviously perverse and wrong they were--as morally acceptable. His line of reasoning goes like this: motivations are the result of genetics, thus in the absence of any governing authority and in the face of hopelessness, there is no reason not to follow through with those desires. Deriving sexual gratification from torturing your daughter to death is morally equivalent to, say, personal abstinence. Both are counter-productive to reproduction. But if that's what your genes are telling you to do, then it's just personal preference, after all. That's his thinking.

It's also important to note that there's a difference between accepting something as an explanation and accepting it as a governing principle. In the case of the father, my idea is that over his life he's subconsciously motivated by a desire to be freed from all sorts of moral constraints. So while he may accept the selfish gene theory to explain parts of life, and even derive certain conclusions from it, he still is motivated by that underlying desire to be free from moral constraints. So when the selfish gene theory implies "you should not kill your daughter because killing her eliminates the potential for reproduction, and reproduction is the ultimate good," his response is "why should I care about the ultimate good over my own desires? That desire to torture her is the only thing I can see to save me from my despondency." In other words, he does exactly what most people do when it comes to moral philosophies.

There was one note I ended up cutting, and now I wish I hadn't. This is what it said:

"Altruism is just a less obvious expression of self interest. It's a consequence of the same mathematical cost-benefit analysis that guides the rest of my decisions. It is illogical to make it a moral barrier to self interest."

Which is basically to say that he believes Altruism is a circular principle, since the justification for Altruism is always just more altruism. In other words, "why should I care about the 'greater good?' Because it helps humanity as a whole. Why should I care about helping humanity as a whole, if it doesn't directly benefit me?" And so on and so on.

I should note that none of this reflects my own philosophical views, since I'm pretty far to the "religious" end of the spectrum :)

You know what though? Looking back, he should have just raped her. It would have been more believable, it would have fit very nicely with the philosophical ideas he spouts rather than requiring a long wall of text from me, and it would have made a much more disturbing point as a result. But in the face of the horrific depravity of other horror games, I wasn't sure that "mere rape" would be enough. Which I now think I was wrong about. This is why it's good to actually get feedback, I suppose.
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Psyringe: Yep that's always the problem with story-driven games; I think we talked about that before. ;) Stories and puzzles can enhance each other, but they can also get in each others' way. Don't be shy to ask other people for ideas, and make sure to have external playtesters (adding ones who are new to the game every now and then).
Yeah, I'll probably do that this time. Nobody saw anything of Fingerbones until I released it. Not even my wife. And I kinda wish I'd playtested it first.

I'll probably post a pre-release version of my next game on here for feedback before I actually release it.


And yes, that's the single biggest struggle I'm having right now: figuring out what sort of "gameplay" to use to tell my story.
Post edited March 25, 2014 by jefequeso
Posted April 06, 2014
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jefequeso: Fingerbones is a psychological horror game inspired by Scratches and Home. It's free, it's short, and it's only around 30 mbs. Take a look!
Tried it recently and I must say that I'm very glad I did! I really hope that you're gonna make more attempts at a plot-driven horror game. The game wasn't flawless but I think it shows that you clearly have potential to create a truly sophisticated and disturbing horror game and I can't wait to see what you could do with the experience gained form this project and maybe more time.

You're clearly aware of the common criticism since you've already written a lot about it and the thoughts you had in retrospect on the plot (I actually read your blog entry on that topic after beating the game) but still, I wanna add my two cents. Let me add that I did not replay the game in order to make sure that I present the opinion and interpretation I got from the game after the initial try.

First let me say that parts of the game genuinely impressed me. You know that alert that goes off when you read about a horrible authentic story? When something tells you not to continue reading, that you're better off not knowing? Well, at least I do and your game actually gave me that feeling. I think what triggered it is the familiarity of some of the protagonist's reasoning and the validity of a few of his points (taking the circumstances presented in the notes) into account. Also particularly at first I was more disgusted by the character than I actually considered him crazy - he was more like a believable eccentric guy than a batshit crazy fella you can't take seriously at all. I think all of these were very strong points of the narrative. Then there was of course the sexual aspect to the horror which you say wasn't intended (at least not to that degree) but simply was there and made the whole thing even more disturbing. Also, since I'm not one of those feminist nuts I will simply admit that the image of an innocent harmless girl being the potential (and ultimately actual) victim further added to the tension.

Now to the big controversial thing. You wrote that you hadn't intended for the players to think that the girl had been raped but most people came to that conclusion. The way I got your blog post you regret that you actually had picked mutilation *instead* of rape and in retrospect would have gone exclusively with rape (without the mutilation, is that correct?). So I want to write a few things about the conclusion I got and how I got there.

Anyway, clearly the image I got was that the protagonist (and yeah, I instantly assumed that the notes were written by the character I controlled while IIRC I could not have been certain) is obsessed with rationalism, that he considers it the only way how he can survive - and survival being the ultimate goal he considers many social rules and values from before the cataclysm (?) obsolete (burns books with no practical use as well as the crayons, is clearly very harsh towards his daughter).

Now, from the moment I read the note about him not having been with a woman in ages it seemed obvious to me that all of this would lead towards him raping his daughter, especially with the note with the DNA and caveman talk (well, IIRC not literally cavemen, but you know what I mean). Up to that point he was that rational guy with a clear goal. Eccentric and unlikable but not insane or evil. I assumed that this would remain true. Now there were two potential reasons why he'd pursue having sex with his own daughter: either his goal was not just his individual and his daughter's survival but that of the human race or at least the preservation of his own DNA - or he considered the satisfaction of his sexual needs as important as that of any other physiological needs and would consider it beneficial to his chances of survival. There had also been a note that (among others - an important "among others", as it turns out) basically stated that past social rules were of no meaning anymore which to me seemed like a justification for committing incest. So at that point his sexual motivations seemed clear and the only thing left to find out was what actually happened.

I discovered the bones and soon after found out that Katie is dead and that he had actually anticipated and looked forward to her death. I'm not completely sure about that but from your blog post it seemed to me that you regret having included mutilation because it could not quite be rationally explained or directly connected to the rape. See, assuming that he's still a somewhat rational (if by our standards clearly unethical) guy I also assumed that the removal of her fingers made sense on some rational level. My instant conclusion was that he had removed her fingers in order to perform the sexual act - I thought he had done so so she couldn't defend herself, so she couldn't hit and scratch him, and to demoralize her. Mutilation in order to simplify rape? Wow, that's like the most evil and disturbing thing one can imagine. The remaining question was why he was looking up to her death and why he was that full of hate towards her - that discovery was admittedly quite shocking and my conclusion was that either:
a) he had gotten the satisfaction that he wanted and now considered her an unnecessary burden
b) sexual satisfaction didn't seem as essential to him after the act
c) he was unable to perform and didn't want her around anymore due to the shame/anger caused by that failure
d) he was unable to impregnate her and thus considered her an unnecessary burden
e) her crying and screaming were so unnerving that he rather wanted her dead than have sexual intercourse with her (or *further* sexual intercourse)

Now of course towards the end he wasn't a rational guy anymore, he was clearly evil and keeping her finger bones as a relic was insane but I was convinced that up to the act there was no sadism, just rationalism and selfishness.

Now as I said - I had not double checked and reread the notes and was going with what was stuck from the first time reading them (except for the "nny" note for obvious reasons - which was a clever thing, btw). There's a good chance that many if not all of these theories would have turned out either unlikely or impossible if I had carefully read all of the notes a second time (plus I may have misunderstood some of them with English being my third language). But well, that's why and how I got there and why both the mutilation connected with the rape scenario made perfect sense based on the assumption that all of this was really about rationalism (or rather a fanatical attempt at following strict rationalism) in extreme circumstances.

Also I'm tired now so I'm not sure all I wrote made sense but well... hope any of that is of any value to you. And I'll say it again: either way it was a pretty clever and disturbing experience and thus a good horror game. Congrats!
Post edited April 06, 2014 by F4LL0UT
Posted April 07, 2014
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F4LL0UT:
Thanks very much! It's really gratifying to know that despite some flaws, the game has managed to really work for a lot of people. It lets me know that I'm moving in the right direction, at least as far as story and atmosphere go (still trying to figure out how best to integrate gameplay and story as a cohesive whole, and in the future I'm hoping my games will benefit more from interaction). Also, thank you so much for the detailed analysis of your thoughts after encountering each note. Since my approach to storytelling relies a lot on anticipating what the player will be thinking about at any given moment, this is invaluable information.

Your idea of mutilation to make rape easier is utterly brilliant (as a horror concept of course!), and I wish I had thought of that. It's utterly horrific, and anyone with any sort of moral feeling would be repulsed by it. But it also makes perfect rational sense from the father's perspective, and thus raises even more disturbing questions about the relationship of morality and reason. If I ever do a similarly-themed "intended to shock" horror game, I might use that. As I said, I do feel that the philosophical subtext isn't quite as powerful as it could have been, since rationality was an excuse for following his irrational desires, rather than the primary motivation for his perversions.

My next game is very plot-focused as well, but without any real message. I'm just trying to tell an interesting story. I do plan on doing more with the idea of "philosophically-motivated horror," but right now I need a break. and I don't want to get into a rut of just creating horrific twisted stuff.
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