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General discussion (archive)Evil, evil Japanese Simulator Pulled from Amazon(105 posts)(105 posts)
(105 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted February 14, 2009
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Shoelip: Why not? It's literally a murder simulator.
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Nafe: I have to call you out on that one. That crazy yank lawyer uses the word "simulator" quite a bit when trying to attack the GTA franchise. The fact is, it's not a simulator and neither is this RapeLay thing. They're games. Manhunt isn't going to give me the skills to go on a killing rampage, the rape game wouldn't give me any insight in to how to rape people. A proper flight simulator with proper equipment, used enough, would give me a good idea how to fly a plane.

Arguments are not automatically invalidated by the use of a word Jack Thompson has used in the past.
The whole point of Manhunt is to murder people. To sneak up behind them and kill them in the most brutal fashion possible without them having a chance to react or defend themselves. Microsoft flight simulator will not make you an expert pilot, Silent Hunter will not make you an expert sub captain. Manhunt will not make you an expert murderer, but they're all simulations because they go for a realistic and detailed depiction.
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Shoelip: Ok... so what I'm getting from this is that your argument is that while emotion is illogical, it is logical to form opinions based solely on emotion? Therefore because we irrationally view rape as worse than murder it is logical?
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hansschmucker: It is logical that our emotions work that way. Doesn't make it right, but understandable. Killing is (as I said before) sometimes OK in our society. Playing cops and robbers comes to mind.

How is it logical that our emotions work that way?
Post edited February 14, 2009 by Shoelip
Posted February 14, 2009
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Shoelip: The whole point of Manhunt is to murder people. To sneak up behind them and kill them in the most brutal fashion possible without them having a chance to react or defend themselves.
it's more like, before allowing them the chance to do the same to you. Remember, you're not the only bad guy in the game, they're out to do the same to you. I think a game like Bully is worse than Manhunt, personally.
Posted February 14, 2009
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Shoelip: The whole point of Manhunt is to murder people. To sneak up behind them and kill them in the most brutal fashion possible without them having a chance to react or defend themselves.
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Weclock: it's more like, before allowing them the chance to do the same to you. Remember, you're not the only bad guy in the game, they're out to do the same to you. I think a game like Bully is worse than Manhunt, personally.

How? Because it involves your character standing up to bullies? In Manhunt, you're the predator. You're killing these people as brutally as possible, far beyond necessity... Because it gives you a bigger reward when you murder them more brutally.
Post edited February 14, 2009 by Shoelip
Posted February 14, 2009
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Shoelip: Ok... so what I'm getting from this is that your argument is that while emotion is illogical, it is logical to form opinions based solely on emotion? Therefore because we irrationally view rape as worse than murder it is logical?

Yes, you're almost there, well done!
Posted February 14, 2009
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Weclock: it's more like, before allowing them the chance to do the same to you. Remember, you're not the only bad guy in the game, they're out to do the same to you. I think a game like Bully is worse than Manhunt, personally.
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Shoelip: How? Because it involves your character standing up to bullies? In Manhunt, you're the predator. You're killing these people as brutally as possible, far beyond necessity... Because it gives you a bigger reward when you murder them more brutally.
haha, I thought the idea was that you were a bully. That's what I got from all the media I've seen on it.
Posted February 14, 2009
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Shoelip: How? Because it involves your character standing up to bullies? In Manhunt, you're the predator. You're killing these people as brutally as possible, far beyond necessity... Because it gives you a bigger reward when you murder them more brutally.
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Weclock: haha, I thought the idea was that you were a bully. That's what I got from all the media I've seen on it.

From what I've seen from it I got shades of gray, like Carl Johnson. You're just a normal guy trying to get through a really fecked up high school.
Posted February 14, 2009
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Zhirek: But you're still wrong and still contradicting yourself.

First off, I think that's a little confrontational and aggressive for a forum as friendly as gog.com's. I appreciate that you disagree, but lets try and keep this friendly eh?
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Zhirek: Let's take a look at this sentence I've led logic out of it because you're exchanging an opinion and not proving something:
This rape game, while pretty disturbing, can't be called much worse than something like Manhunt.
Now we distil some facts out of that sentence
1 This rape game is disturbing.
2. This rape game is as bad as the game manhunt.
We can agree that this is your point in that sentence, right?
Now we use those facts to extrapolate more information out of it.
From 2 we determine that the rape game is equal to manhunt, because you also agree that manhunt can't be called much worse than the rape game.
If we combine this with 1 we get the following sentence:
Manhunt is disturbing.
But you have also said that you don't find graphical violence disturbing.
QED
Don't get me wrong I can easily agree with you on a couple of points in your post. But you can't say A < B so logically A = B.
Also if you use terms such as worse you first have to establish when something is good and when something is bad, also these things for determination must be quantifiable.
If this is not possible then you're making an opinion and not proving something.

You're right in pointing out that I've perhaps not adequately defined my axioms. I'll try again to get across what I'm saying.
I find the idea of a rape game disturbing.
Manhunt doesn't disturb me.
Murder strikes me as being *morally* worse than rape (in most cases). I think that's what was missing, the moral aspect.
Morals are not *necessarily* guided by my emotions.
If I concede that it isn't morally repugnant to play Manhunt, I should concede that morally it's not repugnant to play a rape game.
I guess the point you made about what's good and bad was a valid one, I hadn't defined what I meant when comparing the two games. I don't like bringing up the term morals, because as a word it's soaked in sanctimonious and often religious attitudes, but I'm not sure how else to word it. Perhaps it's a case of suggesting what should and shouldn't be *acceptable* in our society, however that's a bit vague too.
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Shoelip: The whole point of Manhunt is to murder people. To sneak up behind them and kill them in the most brutal fashion possible without them having a chance to react or defend themselves. Microsoft flight simulator will not make you an expert pilot, Silent Hunter will not make you an expert sub captain. Manhunt will not make you an expert murderer, but they're all simulations because they go for a realistic and detailed depiction.

Well, I guess this might take us in the direction of a semantic argument and no one wants that. Suffice to say, I don't think Manhunt fits the definition of a murder simulator any more than pacman fits the simulation of a munchy-ghostavoidy simulator. They're games. One more technically impressive than the other, but that doesn't give it any sense of reality.
Posted February 14, 2009
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Zhirek: But you're still wrong and still contradicting yourself.
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Nafe: First off, I think that's a little confrontational and aggressive for a forum as friendly as gog.com's. I appreciate that you disagree, but lets try and keep this friendly eh?
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Zhirek: Let's take a look at this sentence I've led logic out of it because you're exchanging an opinion and not proving something:
This rape game, while pretty disturbing, can't be called much worse than something like Manhunt.
Now we distil some facts out of that sentence
1 This rape game is disturbing.
2. This rape game is as bad as the game manhunt.
We can agree that this is your point in that sentence, right?
Now we use those facts to extrapolate more information out of it.
From 2 we determine that the rape game is equal to manhunt, because you also agree that manhunt can't be called much worse than the rape game.
If we combine this with 1 we get the following sentence:
Manhunt is disturbing.
But you have also said that you don't find graphical violence disturbing.
QED
Don't get me wrong I can easily agree with you on a couple of points in your post. But you can't say A < B so logically A = B.
Also if you use terms such as worse you first have to establish when something is good and when something is bad, also these things for determination must be quantifiable.
If this is not possible then you're making an opinion and not proving something.

You're right in pointing out that I've perhaps not adequately defined my axioms. I'll try again to get across what I'm saying.
I find the idea of a rape game disturbing.
Manhunt doesn't disturb me.
Murder strikes me as being *morally* worse than rape (in most cases). I think that's what was missing, the moral aspect.
Morals are not *necessarily* guided by my emotions.
If I concede that it isn't morally repugnant to play Manhunt, I should concede that morally it's not repugnant to play a rape game.
I guess the point you made about what's good and bad was a valid one, I hadn't defined what I meant when comparing the two games. I don't like bringing up the term morals, because as a word it's soaked in sanctimonious and often religious attitudes, but I'm not sure how else to word it. Perhaps it's a case of suggesting what should and shouldn't be *acceptable* in our society, however that's a bit vague too.
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Shoelip: The whole point of Manhunt is to murder people. To sneak up behind them and kill them in the most brutal fashion possible without them having a chance to react or defend themselves. Microsoft flight simulator will not make you an expert pilot, Silent Hunter will not make you an expert sub captain. Manhunt will not make you an expert murderer, but they're all simulations because they go for a realistic and detailed depiction.

Well, I guess this might take us in the direction of a semantic argument and no one wants that. Suffice to say, I don't think Manhunt fits the definition of a murder simulator any more than pacman fits the simulation of a munchy-ghostavoidy simulator. They're games. One more technically impressive than the other, but that doesn't give it any sense of reality.

Don't make excuses man, you start something, finish it.
It doesn't suffice to say that you don't think Manhunt is a simulation because if you compare it to other simulations it fits in quite nicely. You're just giving your subjective opinion which happens to disagree with the evidence.
Post edited February 14, 2009 by Shoelip
Posted February 14, 2009
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Shoelip: Don't make excuses man, you start something, finish it.
It doesn't suffice to say that you don't think Manhunt is a simulation because if you compare it to other simulations it fits in quite nicely. You're just giving your objective opinion which happens to disagree with the evidence.

I've not played Silent Hunter so I've no idea how detailed it is, but I'm pretty sure that regardless of what their marketing team says - it's not enough to be called a sub simulator. Not in my opinion. As for Flight Simulator - well it's been an awfully long time since I played one of those so I'm not sure if I'd consider it detailed enough to be called a simulator either. The fact is, there are sim's out there that *are* good enough to make you a decent pilot - whether MS Flight Sim could be used in this fashion, I don't know. Just because it's got simulator in the title doesn't make it one.
Dictionary.com's definition of simulator:
a machine for simulating certain environmental and other conditions for purposes of training or experimentation: a flight simulator.
I don't consider Manhunt to be a suitable murder training simulator by any stretch of the imagination. It's tough to prove a negative though so lets turn this around, what is it about Manhunt that you consider makes it a simulator rather than a silly video game?
Post edited February 14, 2009 by Nafe
Posted February 14, 2009
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Shoelip: You're just giving your objective opinion which happens to disagree with the evidence.

Small correction, just to avoid confusion. I think you mean subjective, not objective.
Posted February 14, 2009
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Shoelip: Don't make excuses man, you start something, finish it.
It doesn't suffice to say that you don't think Manhunt is a simulation because if you compare it to other simulations it fits in quite nicely. You're just giving your objective opinion which happens to disagree with the evidence.
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Nafe: I've not played Silent Hunter so I've no idea how detailed it is, but I'm pretty sure that regardless of what their marketing team says - it's not enough to be called a sub simulator. Not in my opinion. As for Flight Simulator - well it's been an awfully long time since I played one of those so I'm not sure if I'd consider it detailed enough to be called a simulator either. The fact is, there are sim's out there that *are* good enough to make you a decent pilot - whether MS Flight Sim could be used in this fashion, I don't know. Just because it's got simulator in the title doesn't make it one.
Dictionary.com's definition of simulator:
a machine for simulating certain environmental and other conditions for purposes of training or experimentation: a flight simulator.
I don't consider Manhunt to be a suitable murder training simulator by any stretch of the imagination. It's tough to prove a negative though so lets turn this around, what is it about Manhunt that you consider makes it a simulator rather than a silly video game?

Once again it's your subjective opinion against what is generally accepted as fact. Like I said before, Manhunt attempts to depict brutal murder in a realistic and detailed fashion. It actually awards you for more brutal murders. How is it that Manhunt cannot be considered part of the simulation genre?
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Shoelip: You're just giving your objective opinion which happens to disagree with the evidence.
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Wishbone: Small correction, just to avoid confusion. I think you mean subjective, not objective.

Thank you, fixed.
Post edited February 14, 2009 by Shoelip
Posted February 14, 2009
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Shoelip: Once again it's your subjective opinion against what is generally accepted as fact. Like I said before, Manhunt attempts to depict brutal murder in a realistic and detailed fashion. It actually awards you for more brutal murders.

You asked me to continue this discussion, I think you need to provide more evidence for your case than simply believing something is a generally accepted fact. You could apply your logic to more or less any modern and detailed computer game. That doesn't make them simulations - the dictionary definition also disagrees with you.
Posted February 14, 2009
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Shoelip: Once again it's your subjective opinion against what is generally accepted as fact. Like I said before, Manhunt attempts to depict brutal murder in a realistic and detailed fashion. It actually awards you for more brutal murders.
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Nafe: You asked me to continue this discussion, I think you need to provide more evidence for your case than simply believing something is a generally accepted fact. You could apply your logic to more or less any modern and detailed computer game. That doesn't make them simulations - the dictionary definition also disagrees with you.

The real dictionary doesn't disagree with me.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Simulation
Let's put it this way. Do you believe in video game genres?
Posted February 14, 2009
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Nafe: You asked me to continue this discussion, I think you need to provide more evidence for your case than simply believing something is a generally accepted fact. You could apply your logic to more or less any modern and detailed computer game. That doesn't make them simulations - the dictionary definition also disagrees with you.

Remember that the simulator is an established game genre that has existed since the dawn of gaming. The first simulators came out long before there were computers powerful and complex enough to actually do the job very well. That doesn't change anything - they are still simulators, just not very good ones.
It doesn't matter what you see Flight Simulator as - in terms of game genres, it is a simulator. It was created as an attempt to simulate reality, and that's what it is - how successful it is doesn't really factor into this, because that's a quality issue, not a genre issue.
Posted February 14, 2009
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Shoelip: The real dictionary doesn't disagree with me.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Simulation
Let's put it this way. Do you believe in video game genres?

Well, that's a pretty vague definition, I'm going to skip past the "real dictionary" comment as it's just silly :). Definitions I've found:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/simulator
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/simulator?r=75
http://www.yourdictionary.com/simulator
Obviously there are video game genres, yes.
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Zeewolf: Remember that the simulator is an established game genre that has existed since the dawn of gaming. The first simulators came out long before there were computers powerful and complex enough to actually do the job very well. That doesn't change anything - they are still simulators, just not very good ones.
It doesn't matter what you see Flight Simulator as - in terms of game genres, it is a simulator. It was created as an attempt to simulate reality, and that's what it is - how successful it is doesn't really factor into this, because that's a quality issue, not a genre issue.

Fair enough, if it was designed to model real life scenarios and be as accurate as possible, then it's a simulator. I'm fairly certain Manhunt was not designed to be anything other than violent, gory and fun.
Post edited February 14, 2009 by Nafe
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This is my favourite topic
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General discussion (archive)Evil, evil Japanese Simulator Pulled from Amazon(105 posts)(105 posts)
(105 posts)