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michaelleung: Go to any hotel in Japan and turn on the TV. You will be much surprised by the rape porn found there.
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Luned: You ever heard of a city called Nanking?????
Go check out a bit of history bubba, then you might not be surprised by that.

Firstly, it's now called Nanjing. Secondly, I do know, since I live in Hong Kong (which is ridiculously close to Nanjin). I also know that there was a massacre and a mass rape that was denied in Japanese textbooks. I have CNN, you know.
2. It's from Japan. Japan's pretty lenient on what gets put into games. Their adult game market in particular does very well for itself. The Japanese company that publishes this also houses several other erotica games. Those other games aren't as bad, because the women in those games aren't being forced, so it's not rape.
And this is why we don't have mainstream PC gaming. I also get the impression that CERO do not have anything to do with PC games. Now seeing that they are the official ratings board games, it's no surprise that these games are getting away with this stuff if they're not actually being rated. Looking at the two yaoi games my wife owns, neither of them sport CERO ratings and only have an unspecifed "over 18" label on them which was probably placed their by the publisher.
You certainly wouldn't see half the stuff that appears in PC games on consoles. CERO simply wouldn't allow it. Perhaps they should start going over PC games too. Of course that would probably kill the PC porn game industry, but I doubt most people would be that sad to see it go. And it might finally allow real mainstream PC gaming to take hold as it will no longer be automatically associated with Genshiken style sex starved "otaku" (I'm looking at you Madarame).
As always, I'll end by blaming this on Lady Chatterly's Lover, which ultimately is the culprit for the current way in which sex is handled within Japanese media of all forms.
I still think a lot of the Japanese reasons for having such weird/strange taste when it come sto porn and such is because of their outdated use of censoring and other things.
I watched a VBSTV episode where the guy went over there and met a guy who was the head of some porno studio that made porn with things like squids, eels, fish, etc (You probably have seen the eel/squid videos before on the net)..
and I used to think S&M was a bit out there...
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TheCheese33: Oh, I don't know; maybe because violating a little girl while she's crying seems CONSIDERABLY worse than choking someone with a plastic bag?

Both things are pretty horrible, but killing is obviously worse than rape. Yes, there are many situations where people's lives are utterly destroyed because of rapes, but in the end I think most rape victims are glad they're still alive. Death is final, and killing someone is the worst thing you can do to them.
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Stiler: I still think a lot of the Japanese reasons for having such weird/strange taste when it come sto porn and such is because of their outdated use of censoring and other things.

It is. And it was caused by Lady Chatterly's Lover. =)
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Zeewolf: Both things are pretty horrible, but killing is obviously worse than rape. Yes, there are many situations where people's lives are utterly destroyed because of rapes, but in the end I think most rape victims are glad they're still alive. Death is final, and killing someone is the worst thing you can do to them.

Of course, but we're talking about games. Do you want to ban all games where you can kill people? There wouldn't be many games left, then.
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Wishbone: Of course, but we're talking about games. Do you want to ban all games where you can kill people? There wouldn't be many games left, then.

Of course not. But since I think that would be completely unreasonable, I also think it would be unreasonable to ban games with content such as this. It's a sick game, no doubt about that, but I have more moral objections towards a game like Manhunt.
Post edited February 14, 2009 by Zeewolf
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Zeewolf: Both things are pretty horrible, but killing is obviously worse than rape. Yes, there are many situations where people's lives are utterly destroyed because of rapes, but in the end I think most rape victims are glad they're still alive. Death is final, and killing someone is the worst thing you can do to them.
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Wishbone: Of course, but we're talking about games. Do you want to ban all games where you can kill people? There wouldn't be many games left, then.
or creatures depicted as people?
I just read that you can knock up the girls in the game, and if you don't force them to have an abortion they get more visibly pregnant each time you rapelay them.
As a man who's been with a couple pregnant women, I consider this a feature.
Post edited February 14, 2009 by Weclock
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Zhirek: Graphic violence in media such as movies and games is in most countries considered acceptable from a certain age and onwards.
This is not the case with a rape sim so logically it is very different.
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Nafe: That's not logic, that's just accepting societies norms. If we go by America's standards violence is OK, swearing - not so much. Take a look at Heroes - people are routinely getting their heads ripped open. Last weeks lost had a guy get his arm ripped off. I've never even heard a single one of them say "shit" let alone any harder swear words. That speaks volumes to the accepted norm in American society, logic is nowhere to be seen.

No.
You're wrong and you're contradicting yourself.
Hear me out please, as I have done with your post.
In your post you say the following
1. I find the rape game despicable
2. I find the manhunt game not despicable
3. the Idea of the first and second game don't seem to differ in terms of despicableness
(I was assuming that you meant by snuff movie the game manhunt, I haven't played that game and don't have an opinion on it)
Logic and emotions are not mutually exclusive, but if you try to mix them you have to use a certain set values to take emotions into equation.
In this case you have to establish what is the range of things which are (considered) good and what is the range of things which are (considered) bad and what range are the things which are (considered) indifferent or acceptable at this moment in time.
If you don't do that then you're simply exchanging opinions and not using logic to find things out.
So in this case I simply used the set values present in most of the western world for this time period to try to persuade you that raping a child and pulling someone's head off are logically two different things.
Now if we were to live in ancient Rome then I guess you are right because both thing were probably considered equal fun to the Romans.
EDIT:
cut the other reply to another post
Post edited February 14, 2009 by Zhirek
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Nafe: That's not logic, that's just accepting societies norms. If we go by America's standards violence is OK, swearing - not so much. Take a look at Heroes - people are routinely getting their heads ripped open. Last weeks lost had a guy get his arm ripped off. I've never even heard a single one of them say "shit" let alone any harder swear words. That speaks volumes to the accepted norm in American society, logic is nowhere to be seen.
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Zhirek: No.
You're wrong and you're contradicting yourself.
Hear me out please, as I have done with your post.
In your post you say the following
1. I find the rape game despicable
2. I find the manhunt game not despicable
3. the Idea of the first and second game don't seem to differ in terms of despicableness
(I was assuming that you meant by snuff movie the game manhunt, I haven't played that game and don't have an opinion on it)
Logic and emotions are not mutually exclusive, but if you try to mix them you have to use a certain set values to take emotions into equation.
In this case you have to establish what is the range of things which are (considered) good and what is the range of things which are (considered) bad and what range are the things which are (considered) indifferent or acceptable at this moment in time.
If you don't do that then you're simply changing opinions and not using logic to find things out.
So in this case I simply used the set values present in most of the western world for this time period to try to persuade you that raping a child and pulling someone's head off are logically two different things.
Now if we were to live in ancient Rome then I guess you are right because both thing were probably considered equal fun to the Romans.
/me high fives Zhirek!
That is logical.
(I.E. if A + B = C then C = A + B)
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TheCheese33: Oh, I don't know; maybe because violating a little girl while she's crying seems CONSIDERABLY worse than choking someone with a plastic bag?
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Zeewolf: Both things are pretty horrible, but killing is obviously worse than rape. Yes, there are many situations where people's lives are utterly destroyed because of rapes, but in the end I think most rape victims are glad they're still alive. Death is final, and killing someone is the worst thing you can do to them.

We are still talking about a game aren't we. About the consumption of an entertainment product.
In that case rape is always worse than murder. If a movie director for example wants to create a feeling of uneasiness or disgust a rape would be far more effective than a hideous murder scene.
Or do you disagree and find the way that murders are displayed in let's say a Rambo movie much worse than the scenes in the movie The Accused.
If so, then.....
there's a bajillion different ways to portray rape, murder, marriage, and birth.
Some of these can even be confused.
Marriage a rape
Murder a birth..
What is okay? what isn't okay?
In order to truly be free, there should be no censorship, but without censorship people would go too far. But if you censor everything, it's even worse.
There is no appropriate setting, just do what you like and try not to violate the rights of others.
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Zeewolf: Both things are pretty horrible, but killing is obviously worse than rape. Yes, there are many situations where people's lives are utterly destroyed because of rapes, but in the end I think most rape victims are glad they're still alive. Death is final, and killing someone is the worst thing you can do to them.
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Zhirek: We are still talking about a game aren't we. About the consumption of an entertainment product.
In that case rape is always worse than murder. If a movie director for example wants to create a feeling of uneasiness or disgust a rape would be far more effective than a hideous murder scene.
Or do you disagree and find the way that murders are displayed in let's say a Rambo movie much worse than the scenes in the movie The Accused.
If so, then.....

... you're probably not an American.
In America we have really bass ackwards views on sex versus violence left over from the Puritans. Sex is evil, violence is good. Purity through pain or some such bullshit.
I can see where you're coming from with "Logic" Zhirek, but I hope you see how saying something is illogical because it doesn't take into account someone's irrational biases sounds sort of... off.
Personally I'm against externally imposed censorship. I believe people should have the taste not to for instance, compare a video game to Hitler, but I don't believe they should not have the right to do it if they're foolish enough. Speaking of which...
Cheese: Do you realize what you seem like when you compare the man who sparked to bloodiest conflict in human history and had millions of civilians slaughtered just because of how they were born to a game that portrays the fictional rape of a fictional little girl?
Just try to consider how many real women were raped and murdered because of World War 2... Some of whom were probably little girls. Then punch yourself.
Post edited February 14, 2009 by Shoelip
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Zhirek: No.
You're wrong and you're contradicting yourself.
Hear me out please, as I have done with your post.
In your post you say the following
1. I find the rape game despicable
2. I find the manhunt game not despicable
3. the Idea of the first and second game don't seem to differ in terms of despicableness
(I was assuming that you meant by snuff movie the game manhunt, I haven't played that game and don't have an opinion on it)
Logic and emotions are not mutually exclusive, but if you try to mix them you have to use a certain set values to take emotions into equation.
In this case you have to establish what is the range of things which are (considered) good and what is the range of things which are (considered) bad and what range are the things which are (considered) indifferent or acceptable at this moment in time.
If you don't do that then you're simply changing opinions and not using logic to find things out.
So in this case I simply used the set values present in most of the western world for this time period to try to persuade you that raping a child and pulling someone's head off are logically two different things.
Now if we were to live in ancient Rome then I guess you are right because both thing were probably considered equal fun to the Romans.
EDIT:
cut the other reply to another post

I wasn't contradicting myself, I was actually pointing out that emotional responses aren't necessarily logical. I'm desensitised enough to violence in computer games to gleefully tear apart victims in Manhunt with it having no affect on me other than to perhaps relieve a bit of stress. If I were to play that rape game, I expect (though I don't know for certain) that I'd find it distasteful and, perhaps even a little disturbing.
So, the facts as they stand, I find violence less disturbing than rape in computer games. That's my emotional response, that doesn't make it a *logical* response. You said logic and emotion aren't mutually exclusive, this is true, but emotion is not always borne of logic. In this day and age, I think it makes sense to analyse our emotional responses and try to make logical sense of them before we make decisions that affect our/other lives.
With regards to western societies attitudes (sorry to go back to it), no doubt if on an episode of Heroes, while a cheerleader is having her exposed brain fiddled with by some psychopath she says "LET ME GO YOU F**KING FREAK" I've no doubt a lot of audiences would be absolutely appalled. By the swearing. The implication that swearing is more offensive than violence is pretty ridiculous, but that's the way it is (or at least that's the way the FCC sees it).
To make a point out of this rambling post, I think that if you're willing to analyse your emotional responses you'll see that they're not always logically sound. This rape game, while pretty disturbing, can't logically be called much worse than something like Manhunt or GTA. Manhunt for it's explicitly brutal violence, and GTA for wholesale slaughter of masses of innocent people.
Besides at the end of the day, it's fake. Plus there's quite a few people out there (men *and* women) who have rape fantasies. For them, this game could well be a harmless indulgence. Before anyone starts throwing around accusations, that's not me - anything even vaguely non-consensual looking and it's an insta-flop™ for me.
Also, I don't like the suggestion that this could lead others to actually commit rape. If you entertain that idea, you logically have to entertain the idea that obsessive playing of GTA is going to lead you to car-jack and shoot people for no reason other than they'll drop spinning wads of glowing green cash.
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Shoelip: ... you're probably not an American.

Dude, what tipped you off he wasn't American? was it his note saying he's from the netherlands?
Post edited February 14, 2009 by Weclock