Posted April 02, 2009
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Wishbone
Red herring
Registered: Oct 2008
From Denmark
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JudasIscariot
Thievin' Bastard
Registered: Oct 2008
From Poland
Posted April 02, 2009
Post edited April 02, 2009 by JudasIscariot
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Faithful
Brain Freeze
Registered: Sep 2008
From United States
Posted April 02, 2009
Number 3 here. I do from gog as I want everything safe and secure.
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Wishbone
Red herring
Registered: Oct 2008
From Denmark
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JudasIscariot
Thievin' Bastard
Registered: Oct 2008
From Poland
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michaelleung
YOU ARE ALL RETARDS
Registered: Sep 2008
From Canada
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JudasIscariot
Thievin' Bastard
Registered: Oct 2008
From Poland
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michaelleung
YOU ARE ALL RETARDS
Registered: Sep 2008
From Canada
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JudasIscariot
Thievin' Bastard
Registered: Oct 2008
From Poland
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Namur
Malkavian
Registered: Oct 2008
From Portugal
Posted April 02, 2009
Yep, i agree. The multi-quoting is getting boring.
Gundato:
I feel like you still missed a couple of points i was trying to make.
I was never arguing that pirates should be helped. How could I?
And i already told you that i feel glad that the tool will indeed help you and others who also need it to get that one activation back.
I was underlining the irony that you, who payed for your game with your money, had to wait untill now to get this 'tool' to get one activation back, while pirates never had to bother with any of this.
Paying customers shouldn't need this kind of 'gift' this late in the game because they deserve (at the very least) the same hassle free ride that people that download the game from the web have. That's it.
Is this an EA exclusive problem ? No. But while i can deslike all forms of DRM in principle, i can only complaint objectively about stuff that hits me in the face. EA hit me in the face.
Bottomline, i feel i was not treated with the respect i know i deserve as a customer, and it will take a lot more then this kind of 'gift' to change my mind.
About SecuRom, my main problem with is that it got installed on my HD without my knowledge, period. Nitpick all you want about it but nothing will ever change this. This is a clear abuse, borderline illegal in my book. If you're ok with it, fine. I'm not.
They surely have the righ to protect their IP and their products any way they see fit. And I'm pretty sure that i (still) have the right to decide about what crap get's installed on my HD. I didn't do anything to deprive them of their rights. The same cannot be said about the way they treated their customers.
So i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
You are gratefull for the tool. Fine. I'm not. Now that i know what comes with the game, i won't reinstall it, so i don't need the one activation back.They can keep it and shove it wherever it fits best.
You think they did this because they are 'paying attention' to the community. Fine. I see it differentely. To me, it's nothing more than standart damage control B.S.
I'm not on a crusade, i'm not telling people not to buy/use their products.
I'm expressing my opinions as a paying customer based on my own experience with their latest products.
Gundato:
I feel like you still missed a couple of points i was trying to make.
I was never arguing that pirates should be helped. How could I?
And i already told you that i feel glad that the tool will indeed help you and others who also need it to get that one activation back.
I was underlining the irony that you, who payed for your game with your money, had to wait untill now to get this 'tool' to get one activation back, while pirates never had to bother with any of this.
Paying customers shouldn't need this kind of 'gift' this late in the game because they deserve (at the very least) the same hassle free ride that people that download the game from the web have. That's it.
Is this an EA exclusive problem ? No. But while i can deslike all forms of DRM in principle, i can only complaint objectively about stuff that hits me in the face. EA hit me in the face.
Bottomline, i feel i was not treated with the respect i know i deserve as a customer, and it will take a lot more then this kind of 'gift' to change my mind.
About SecuRom, my main problem with is that it got installed on my HD without my knowledge, period. Nitpick all you want about it but nothing will ever change this. This is a clear abuse, borderline illegal in my book. If you're ok with it, fine. I'm not.
They surely have the righ to protect their IP and their products any way they see fit. And I'm pretty sure that i (still) have the right to decide about what crap get's installed on my HD. I didn't do anything to deprive them of their rights. The same cannot be said about the way they treated their customers.
So i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
You are gratefull for the tool. Fine. I'm not. Now that i know what comes with the game, i won't reinstall it, so i don't need the one activation back.They can keep it and shove it wherever it fits best.
You think they did this because they are 'paying attention' to the community. Fine. I see it differentely. To me, it's nothing more than standart damage control B.S.
I'm not on a crusade, i'm not telling people not to buy/use their products.
I'm expressing my opinions as a paying customer based on my own experience with their latest products.
Post edited April 02, 2009 by Namur
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DarrkPhoenix
A1 Antagonist
Registered: Nov 2008
From United States
Posted April 02, 2009
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I actually don't think their motivations matter at all, or more precisely, I expect the motivation of nearly every business decision to be maximizing the value of the company, and since all the motivations are the same it's senseless to waste any time considering the matter. My comment was more a critique of the spin you were putting on the matter than a shot at EA. The bottom line is that EA took a small step towards fixing a fuckup they made, although the bulk of the fuckup still remains unchanged. Their motivation for doing so means pretty much nothing. I think they should be acknowledged for the small step they took, but they should still be receiving a fair amount of criticism, since as I said the bulk of their fuckup still remains.
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I have every installer saved to my hard drive and also backed up to an external drive, and from the responses so far it looks like I'm not alone. The key point, though, which you seem to recognize but are trying desperately to gloss over, is that with GOG we are both able and encouraged to archive our games in a way that is no way dependent on GOG's continued existence, while Steam purposefully makes doing such impossible (at least without violating the law). Really, if I have to spell this out any further this discussion isn't even worth my time anymore.
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I actually give MS a hell of a lot of flak for this whenever the matter comes up, so yes, I not only could argue that, I do argue that. Was there a point here?
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Impressive, a car analogy and one that's completely nonsensical at that. Do you post on Slashdot regularly? ;) My point, which you seem to have got but then pretty much ignored, is that releasing games devoid of DRM is not some crazy pipe dream but a perfectly viable business decision. The recent PoP game also shows this (there are examples from various other sources as well, but I don't feel like digging up and typing out a comprehensive list). Pushing developers and publishers to release games free of DRM is not asking them to slit their throats, or even take a hit in profits. It's pointing out that DRM is a failed and fundamentally flawed idea, that it fails to prevent piracy, that it's hostile towards actual paying customers, that an increasing number of gamers are fed up with it, and in short that there's simply no need to include it and plenty of reasons not to.
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Some of the world is quite willing to deal with DRM (or more precisely is simply oblivious to its existence, at least until they get bit), while some of the world is also not willing to deal with it. One of the reasons that iTunes has continued to remain strong is that a significant and increasing portion of their catalog is DRM free, thus allowing them to retain the people who do care about DRM as customers. It seems even Apple, one of the worst offenders out there in terms of proprietary systems and vendor lock-in, recognizes that offering products free of DRM is important for retaining a non-trivial number of people as customers.
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The argument as it needs to be stated isn't "we shouldn't have needed this in the first place," but rather "we don't need this." Period. Full stop. This is because, as I stated earlier, products being released free of DRM isn't some idealized pipe dream, but a perfectly viable business decision, and has already been shown to be such in multiple, varied instances. DRM doesn't accomplish its goal; it's been shown to not be needed; it only succeeds in inconveniencing legitimate customers and deterring sales; it's time to move past this failed idea.
Post edited April 02, 2009 by DarrkPhoenix
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Gundato
The Peepe
Registered: Sep 2008
From United States
Posted April 02, 2009
We don't need a way to restore our activations? News to me. I have been afraid to uninstall MEPC since I got it for that very reason :p.
And you are right, DRM probably isn't needed. But it is here. My point with the car metaphor was taht what works for one person might not work for others. And most people would prefer to go the conventional route (buying a car from a dealership or the newspaper) rather than try a semi-radical idea (buying a car on the shoulder of the road). And if DRM is here, I don't see the major publishers giving up. So if I want to be realistic, I am going to hope for Steam :p.
Either way, I doubt either of us will be able to convince the other. I am taking the side of "annoyed resignation with a hope for a better tomorrow" whereas you seem pretty hellbent on arguing that everyone feels the way you do (and they just don't know it yet :p). For what it is worth, I actually agree with you (to an extent) regarding DRM. I don't like it (never did, and that includes when we had holes in our floppies). But it is here, and it is not going to go away (if only because it might send the wrong message). So I am just hoping we get manageable and tolerable DRM methods.
And you are right, DRM probably isn't needed. But it is here. My point with the car metaphor was taht what works for one person might not work for others. And most people would prefer to go the conventional route (buying a car from a dealership or the newspaper) rather than try a semi-radical idea (buying a car on the shoulder of the road). And if DRM is here, I don't see the major publishers giving up. So if I want to be realistic, I am going to hope for Steam :p.
Either way, I doubt either of us will be able to convince the other. I am taking the side of "annoyed resignation with a hope for a better tomorrow" whereas you seem pretty hellbent on arguing that everyone feels the way you do (and they just don't know it yet :p). For what it is worth, I actually agree with you (to an extent) regarding DRM. I don't like it (never did, and that includes when we had holes in our floppies). But it is here, and it is not going to go away (if only because it might send the wrong message). So I am just hoping we get manageable and tolerable DRM methods.
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DarrkPhoenix
A1 Antagonist
Registered: Nov 2008
From United States
Posted April 03, 2009
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I did get your point from your rather convoluted analogy, I'm just of the opinion that it's complete rubbish. Selling games (or other software) without DRM is not some semi-radical idea, it's been done from the very inception of computer software up to the present day, with games ranging from good old games, to indy games of varying popularity, to brand new triple A titles. The market has also spoken time and again on the matter of particularly limiting or annoying DRM, from code-wheels, to dongles, to the current internet activation limits. And every time the answer has been the same: no fucking way. It seems like the only reason DRM keeps coming back is because those in decision-making positions are unable/unwilling to learn from history, and are denser than depleted uranium. Every time a new bit of technology becomes available they seem to get a hard-on thinking about how much more money they could make using it to restrict what consumers can do, which is why it is so important to smack them down every time they embark on some new assault on consumer rights.
Finally, one of the most basic rules of negotiation: Never ask for what you want. Ask for much more, then settle for what you want. Hold publishers to the standard that Steam is just fine and soon you'll be dealing with something worse. Hold them to the standard that any DRM decreases the value of their product and while only some will actually end up going this route the DRM we do see will be fairly mild. The major backlash against the latest round of DRM over the past 8 months or so demonstrates that game developers and publishers will start listening and adhering to customer wishes once their bottom line starts getting hit; now we just have to make sure that the wishes we are communicating are ones that, when heard, will actually get us what we want.
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It was never my intention to convince you (or anyone else) of anything; I just engage in these kinds of discussions because I enjoy it. As for the position you're taking, it's your right to take whatever position you wish. I also am quite aware that there are many (most, probably) who don't agree with my position; I speak only for myself with what my position is and why I hold this position. As for whether DRM goes away, that's entirely up to how us, as game buyers, respond to it. Companies will respond to the market or perish, so it falls to each of us to voice our opinion on the matter of DRM, and most importantly to voice that opinion through how we spend our money.
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Namur
Malkavian
Registered: Oct 2008
From Portugal
Posted April 03, 2009
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You've been AFFRAID to uninstall YOUR game from YOUR machine?
They effectively managed to limit the way you're using YOUR legit software on YOUR hardware?
And you're still willing to praise them for 'giving' you/us this tool ? Really ?
Maybe if you could forget about the damn game entirely you'd realize that if this kind of behaviour ever became mainstream with software/games publishers, the control of what goes on on your system would slowly but surely be taken away from you. And being AFFRAID to unistall legit software, because you don't know if you'll be able to activate it later on does qualify as loss of control over your property. Are you telling me you're ok with that ? Really ? Forget about the game and think about the principle at stake here.
Guess what, people who dowloaded the game from the web have been unistalling and reinstalling the game at will without any fear. They didn't pay a cent for their game. See my point now?
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Gundato
The Peepe
Registered: Sep 2008
From United States